Dr. Doom & Dr. Strange vS Magneto & Professor Xavier

Originally posted by demigawd
Why wouldn't Strange be able to de-activate the mutant gene? What is it in the definition of Strange's powers that could prevent him from doing something like that?

'Kay, what ever you say. Strange owns Magneto even harder than.

Based on what? Strange channels the holy so-and-sos, and they're clearly more powerful than Surfer, so why wouldn't magic work on him?

That fact that he has to channel that power. Even then, he doesn't have all their powers, only a fraction of it.

Why wouldn't it work on Thanos? What does Thanos have that prevents magic from having that effect on him? Why couldn't Strange cast a spell to change him to cotton candy, then cast another spell to remove conscious thought from him, leaving him cotton candy permanently?

Because Chaos and Order stated that him and Warlock are outside their realm. Chaos and Order are the top of the magic hierarchy from what I know. Beyonder and Surfer can transmute things, Thanos kicked both of their asses.

Odin creates things like the Cask of Winters Past, the Amulet of A Thousand Suns, Mljornir, and help enchant the Destroyer armor. Odin's magic >>>>Strange. Thanos ordered Surfer to his side against Odin, not Strange.

Thanos did fairly well against Odin.

And he channels Vishanti's powers all the time. Even Eternity. Why couldn't he do that and then eat Thanos?

He's also had trouble with the Mindless Ones. Even when he channels their power, it takes time and even then only receives a fraction of their powers. Only on rare occusions does he get the full power of his deity.

So again, if STRANGE could SUMMON Galactus, pulling his entire ship into a realm, doesn't that mean that his magic can affect Galactus? So then why couldn't he channel Vishanti and Eternity and whoever else to defeat Galactus too? Why couldn't he change Galactus to a bunny? When has Galactus resisted a spell?

He was traveling with Galactus, his was utilizing the Eye of Aggamotto when he was pulled into that dimension. When Aggamotto was pissed, Strange desperately pulled the World Ship into Aggamotto's realm. Heck, he wasn't even sure that spell was going to work. Galactus shows up and finds Aggamotto. Then demanded the Eye; they fight while Strange hides behind his shield from the conflict. Hoggath and Oshtur showed up complaing to Aggamotto that their battle was shaking other dimensions nearby. Even though Aggamotto thought and insisted his fellow Vishantis to assist him in ridding Galactus, he eventually agreed to stop and allow Galactus and Strange to leave his realm.

Galactus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Strange

And no, Strange can't just obtain the full power of higher deities with them allowing to do so. Without their permission, he can only access small portions of their power like every other sorcerrors with sufficient magical knowledge.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Demigawd ends up with the power to get annoyed that magic so easily circumvented his precious physics........ 😛

Bastard! 😛

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Originally posted by demigawd
Why wouldn't Strange be able to de-activate the mutant gene? What is it in the definition of Strange's powers that could prevent him from doing something like that?

'Kay, what ever you say. Strange owns Magneto even harder than.

BASTARD!!!! I'm trying to get some sense of perspective on Strange's powers here and you take advantage!

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Based on what? Strange channels the holy so-and-sos, and they're clearly more powerful than Surfer, so why wouldn't magic work on him?

That fact that he has to channel that power. Even then, he doesn't have all their powers, only a fraction of it.

Well, given that Surfer is nothing compared to people like the Vishanti, and Strange borrowing even 10% of the power of each of them should be more than enough to override Surfer's power. How can Surfer override magic when Surfer's power is within the confines of physical laws and magic circumvents them?

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Why wouldn't it work on Thanos? What does Thanos have that prevents magic from having that effect on him? Why couldn't Strange cast a spell to change him to cotton candy, then cast another spell to remove conscious thought from him, leaving him cotton candy permanently?

Because Chaos and Order stated that him and Warlock are outside their realm. Chaos and Order are the top of the magic hierarchy from what I know. Beyonder and Surfer can transmute things, Thanos kicked both of their asses.

ok, now we're getting somewhere. Can you tell me a bit more about this magic hierarchy.

Beyonder and Surfer CAN transmute things...but did either of them try it against Thanos? I think Surfer has only energy blasted Thanos, as did Beyonder. Has Thanos ever either 1)Transformed himself from some other state under his own power or 2)Prevented himself from being transformed into some other state under his own power? If the answer is "no" to either, then Strange can probably transmute Thanos and easily beat him.

Odin creates things like the Cask of Winters Past, the Amulet of A Thousand Suns, Mljornir, and help enchant the Destroyer armor. Odin's magic >>>>Strange. Thanos ordered Surfer to his side against Odin, not Strange.

Well, Odin's magic is even greater, so that's understandable. I'm not putting Strange against magic beings, which just adds to the confusion. I'm putting him against beings who exist within the confines of my precious physics.

Thanos did fairly well against Odin.

Odin didn't try any real magic against him. Just beat him up and blasted him.

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And he channels Vishanti's powers all the time. Even Eternity. Why couldn't he do that and then eat Thanos?

He's also had trouble with the Mindless Ones. Even when he channels their power, it takes time and even then only receives a fraction of their powers. Only on rare occusions does he get the full power of his deity.

What are those occasions? And how long does it take for him to cast spells? So he can't do some huge transmuting spell with a wave of the hand, then? He has to concentrate? Under what circumstances does he have to make speeches vs. just concentrating and doing it?

This will definitely help establish operating parameters for Strange.

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So again, if STRANGE could SUMMON Galactus, pulling his entire ship into a realm, doesn't that mean that his magic can affect Galactus? So then why couldn't he channel Vishanti and Eternity and whoever else to defeat Galactus too? Why couldn't he change Galactus to a bunny? When has Galactus resisted a spell?

He was traveling with Galactus, his was utilizing the Eye of Aggamotto when he was pulled into that dimension. When Aggamotto was pissed, Strange desperately pulled the World Ship into Aggamotto's realm. Heck, he wasn't even sure that spell was going to work. Galactus shows up and finds Aggamotto. Then demanded the Eye; they fight while Strange hides behind his shield from the conflict. Hoggath and Oshtur showed up complaing to Aggamotto that their battle was shaking other dimensions nearby. Even though Aggamotto thought and insisted his fellow Vishantis to assist him in ridding Galactus, he eventually agreed to stop and allow Galactus and Strange to leave his realm.

Galactus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Strange

So Strange wasn't sure the spell was going to work...but it did. He hid behind a shield, which means he was able to block power from both G and Hellomotto. That's already two situations in which his power has had an effect against G. I mean, pulling G's entire world ship is CRAZY powerful. If he could do all of that...what resistence to magic has G demonstrated?

Why couldn't Strange freeze time on G, make a deal with the Vishanti while G is frozen to gang up on him, teleport him to their realm and have the Vishanti dogpile G while he's still frozen in time?

And no, Strange can't just obtain the full power of higher deities with them allowing to do so. Without their permission, he can only access small portions of their power like every other sorcerrors with sufficient magical knowledge.

ok, so he freezes time on Thanos, works out some deal to get extra power from the Vishanti, comes back and levels him. Why wouldn't that work?

Originally posted by demigawd

Well, given that Surfer is nothing compared to people like the Vishanti, and Strange borrowing even 10% of the power of each of them should be more than enough to override Surfer's power. How can Surfer override magic when Surfer's power is within the confines of physical laws and magic circumvents them?

I don't even think it's 10%. Those minor spells are used to borrow minor things like Cyttorak's Crimson Bands, Aggamotto's Eye to see through enchantments and such, Womb's winds, etc. When he was a newbie, he even called Dormammu's name to use his powers.

He gets minor (still powerful) magic from them. During his journey in the World Ship with Galactus, he is pulled into the realm of Cyttorak. Nova is kidnaped and Strange tries to reason with Cyttorak. He had to tell Cyttorak that he was using some of the deity's magic and in a way spreading Cyttorak's glory like Juggernaut was. It's that minor that even Cyttorak wasn't aware that Strange was borrowing his power.

Beyonder and Surfer CAN transmute things...but did either of them try it against Thanos? I think Surfer has only energy blasted Thanos, as did Beyonder. Has Thanos ever either 1)Transformed himself from some other state under his own power or 2)Prevented himself from being transformed into some other state under his own power? If the answer is "no" to either, then Strange can probably transmute Thanos and easily beat him.

Thanos was given a power up by Death. Wether she is powered by mystcial or cosmic energy, she's still on Eternity and Infinity's level. Thanos' isn't a being you transmute not with his power up and Eternal origin. You can't transmute Eternal, and Thanos is more powerful than normal Titans as he's part Earth Eternal (stronger than Titan Eternals), plus he's also a mutant among his people. Sersi can transmute things, and Thanos is above her. Even before his death and ressurrection; Thanos turned a Skrull into stone under his own power.

What are those occasions? And how long does it take for him to cast spells? So he can't do some huge transmuting spell with a wave of the hand, then? He has to concentrate? Under what circumstances does he have to make speeches vs. just concentrating and doing it?

This will definitely help establish operating parameters for Strange.

It really depends on how powerful the spell. If he has talismans with him, it makes it quicker. But he could reach levels above Surfer or Thor given sufficient time to cast his spells. However, things like envoking the Crimson Bands and Eye Of Aggamotto takes only a few seconds. Furthermore, he has an auto protect shield around him.

So Strange wasn't sure the spell was going to work...but it did. He hid behind a shield, which means he was able to block power from both G and Hellomotto. That's already two situations in which his power has had an effect against G. I mean, pulling G's entire world ship is CRAZY powerful. If he could do all of that...what resistence to magic has G demonstrated?

Neither Galactus or Aggamotto directed their attack at Strange. He shield wouldn't hold out if either went after him. He pulled the World Ship through a barrier - it still doesn't mean he has anything over Galactus. Galactus' ship has been blown up by lessers like all of SHIELD but easily repaired. Strange has nothing on Galactus, who can make heralds as powerful or more powerful than Strange.

Why couldn't Strange freeze time on G, make a deal with the Vishanti while G is frozen to gang up on him, teleport him to their realm and have the Vishanti dogpile G while he's still frozen in time?

Why? He was assisting Galactus in the first place. He pulled Galactus in to help him against Aggamotto. The Vishanti are most peaceful; Aggamotto was pissed that Galactus was in his realm.

ok, so he freezes time on Thanos, works out some deal to get extra power from the Vishanti, comes back and levels him. Why wouldn't that work? [/B]

He hasn't frozen time to my knowledge. He's used shields and such to buy more time. Nope, they don't just allow him to use their full might for minor fights. Even when the universe was at stake by Magus, Aggamotto didn't even care since it wasn't his cosmo.

When he fought Shuma Gorath (once sorcerror supreme of it's dimension, later merged with it's dimension), Eternity gave Strange the power to fight and beat Shuma Gorath.

Originally posted by Beyonder
I don't even think it's 10%. Those minor spells are used to borrow minor things like Cyttorak's Crimson Bands, Aggamotto's Eye to see through enchantments and such, Womb's winds, etc. When he was a newbie, he even called Dormammu's name to use his powers.

That's all well and good, but even with that amount of magic, how would Surfer be able to resist it? What's the resistence level of magic when it circumvents the laws of physics? What would make Surfer immune to Strange's spells, even if borrowing a fraction of Vishani power?

Thanos was given a power up by Death. Wether she is powered by mystcial or cosmic energy, she's still on Eternity and Infinity's level. Thanos' isn't a being you transmute not with his power up and Eternal origin. You can't transmute Eternal, and Thanos is more powerful than normal Titans as he's part Earth Eternal (stronger than Titan Eternals), plus he's also a mutant among his people. Sersi can transmute things, and Thanos is above her. Even before his death and ressurrection; Thanos turned a Skrull into stone under his own power.

Would that make Thanos immune to transmuting, or does he just have the power to undo the transmuting? And isn't there a difference between shifting molecules and magically...changing somebody? What if you shift their consciousness? So that they can no longer will themselves to change? Why couldn't Strange cast a spell to make Thanos forget who he is...THEN transmute him, so that he couldn't change back?

It really depends on how powerful the spell. If he has talismans with him, it makes it quicker. But he could reach levels above Surfer or Thor given sufficient time to cast his spells. However, things like envoking the Crimson Bands and Eye Of Aggamotto takes only a few seconds. Furthermore, he has an auto protect shield around him.

I can understand how Thor's magical nature could resist minor spells, but I'm still not getting how Surfer and Thanos, who aren't magical and don't have special magic resistence, could resist even mild spells.

Neither Galactus or Aggamotto directed their attack at Strange. He shield wouldn't hold out if either went after him.

I can see that being the case weith Aggamotto, but couldn't Strange just create a dimensional shield that will absorb G's blast and direct it to another dimension? This way, there doesn't have to be a shield to hold things up.

I guess what I'd like to know is at what level, during debates involving Strange, do you make the distinction between "instant" and "needing a talisman that he's not equipped with by default" and "needing a few seconds" and "needing an entire spell and special permission from the Vishanti"? Because I'm always hearing, "Strange can just...." and it never made sense to me because that basically makes him a reality manipulator. So what are the guidelines for determining how much he can do quickly?

He pulled the World Ship through a barrier - it still doesn't mean he has anything over Galactus. Galactus' ship has been blown up by lessers like all of SHIELD but easily repaired. Strange has nothing on Galactus, who can make heralds as powerful or more powerful than Strange.

But what is power if you don't have any resistence to magic? What is having mastery of physical aspects of the universe against magic if magic doesn't obey any of those laws? Why couldn't Strange cast a spell to just remove the cosmic power from any Herald?

Why? He was assisting Galactus in the first place. He pulled Galactus in to help him against Aggamotto. The Vishanti are most peaceful; Aggamotto was pissed that Galactus was in his realm.

I'm speaking theoretically.

He hasn't frozen time to my knowledge. He's used shields and such to buy more time. Nope, they don't just allow him to use their full might for minor fights. Even when the universe was at stake by Magus, Aggamotto didn't even care since it wasn't his cosmo.

I guess I'd like to know what their "full might" would give him anyway. The guidelines seem so lax and fluid that it's impossible to know one way or another. And just because he hasn't frozen time...doesn't mean he couldn't. It's just a magic thing, isn't it?

Originally posted by demigawd
[B]That's all well and good, but even with that amount of magic, how would Surfer be able to resist it? What's the resistence level of magic when it circumvents the laws of physics? What would make Surfer immune to Strange's spells, even if borrowing a fraction of Vishani power?

You'd think but I don't know of a deity that he can evoke to transmute things. He can do it on a smaller scale but move it up and he needs extra juice. The more durable their body, the more magic is required.

For instance, Strange can only utilize Cyttorak's Crimson Bands to bind people or shield himself. He doesn't have access to the Unstoppablity and might that Juggernaut receives from Cyttorak. He can only envoke Cyttorak's Crimson Bands. More power means permission from the deity. Trion or 8th Day Juggernaut gets nore power from Cyttorak with his permission. Trion Juggy was basically Cyttorak, doing things like breaking through dimensions with punches.

Agamotto provides the Eye to see through spells or locate things throughout the universe. Agamotto has more powers than that, but Strange isn't getting any of it just invoking Agamotto's name.

The Flames of Faltine are just one of Dormammu's powers. Strange (newbie) stop invoking Dormammu's power once he found out who Dormammu was.

Furthermore, Surfer is on another level. Galactus is as great as any other mystical beings. Power Cosmic is as well, not saying PC is equal to mystical source but it's not far behind. Strange is still mortal and limited to what spells he can cast on his own and spells he needs to invoke a deity's name. Magic and Power Cosmic can do uncanny things, but the limit depends on the user.

Would that make Thanos immune to transmuting, or does he just have the power to undo the transmuting? And isn't there a difference between shifting molecules and magically...changing somebody? What if you shift their consciousness? So that they can no longer will themselves to change? Why couldn't Strange cast a spell to make Thanos forget who he is...THEN transmute him, so that he couldn't change back?

Relative. If Strange was channeling Eternity or Infinity or some greater source than yes. But Thanos for the most part isn't transmutable. Magic is just the opposite of physics. There's going to be a limit.

I can understand how Thor's magical nature could resist minor spells, but I'm still not getting how Surfer and Thanos, who aren't magical and don't have special magic resistence, could resist even mild spells.

You don't have to be a magic user to be resistance to magic transmution and vice versa. During his fight with Odin, Thanos pointed out to Odin that no matter what you call it, it's still just energy. Thor is born mystical, Strange learned the art. Thanos was born with cosmic powers as any Eternal, Surfer was given them. Everyone taps into power in different ways, it's not the title of power but the limit the person that wields it.

Agamotto would crush Surfer in so many ways. Not because Agamotto is mystical and Surfer is not, Agamotto just has more power. Agamotto against Galactus - stalemate. And we both know Galactus isn't mystical.

I can see that being the case weith Aggamotto, but couldn't Strange just create a dimensional shield that will absorb G's blast and direct it to another dimension? This way, there doesn't have to be a shield to hold things up.

I looked through that issue. Agamotto pulled Strange the Eyes and the Orb of Agamotto into his realm because he didn't like Strange using them to assist "the Devourer of Worlds." Strange tries to leave with the Eyes and Orb, but Agamotto uses that the orb the encase Strange. Strange pulls in the World Ship, and Agamotto remarks that Strange was smart to use the Orb's power to that. Hence, Strange used a talisman (that he's used before) to pull off that feat. As Agamotto and Galactus fought it out, Strange manages to take advantage and escape from the Orb. An energy wave from the battle knocked Strange down.

Then Oshtur and Hoggath shows up. Agamotto then remarks that they came here because Strange sent a distress message to them. They acknowledge and adds that the battle was wrecking havoc to other dimensions. Agamotto agrees to let Strange and Galactus leave with the talismans.

Strange never used his shield; it was actually the Orb Of Agamotto.

I guess what I'd like to know is at what level, during debates involving Strange, do you make the distinction between "instant" and "needing a talisman that he's not equipped with by default" and "needing a few seconds" and "needing an entire spell and special permission from the Vishanti"? Because I'm always hearing, "Strange can just...." and it never made sense to me because that basically makes him a reality manipulator. So what are the guidelines for determining how much he can do quickly?

First off, he almost always has his auto shield. Secondly he utilizes the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak as either a shield or constraint. Thirdly, he can easily effect low durability level beings easier than higher ones. Magneto can take shots from Hulk only because of his shield - his body itself is at best peak human level.

The more powerful and durable the foe, the longer it takes from him to finish them off. Under his own mystical power, he'd be about a notch below Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Surfer, etc. level. When he invokes deities, he's on their level or can exceed it.

But what is power if you don't have any resistence to magic? What is having mastery of physical aspects of the universe against magic if magic doesn't obey any of those laws? Why couldn't Strange cast a spell to just remove the cosmic power from any Herald?

???Power is power. Magic does have limit as does Power Cosmic. Strange can't undo something Galactus gave to his Herald. Only way possible is more power behind Strange's spell.

I guess I'd like to know what their "full might" would give him anyway. The guidelines seem so lax and fluid that it's impossible to know one way or another. And just because he hasn't frozen time...doesn't mean he couldn't. It's just a magic thing, isn't it?

He can travel back in time. I'm not sure he can freeze time; he's yet to demonstrate it during desire times like Infinity Gauntlet, War, Crusade, etc. Even if he can, Surfer has frozen time as well from what I know.

Ah, I get it now. So when using Strange in debates, he's really only limited to what the diety can do and what that diety is willing to give him? So someone can't just say, "Strange removes the X-gene from this mutant" or "Strange just opens up a black hole and sucks the earth in", he'd have to have a diety who is able to do that, right? But how do you know what the diety can and cannot do and how much of their power is necessary (spell prep time) to do it?

I'm doing all of this because I hate magic, but no one has really come forward and put limits on it. Your explanations will go a long way to putting some clamps on the "Strange blinks them out of existence" insta-logic that Strange supporters use.

Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, I get it now. So when using Strange in debates, he's really only limited to what the diety can do and what that diety is willing to give him? So someone can't just say, "Strange removes the X-gene from this mutant" or "Strange just opens up a black hole and sucks the earth in", he'd have to have a diety who is able to do that, right? But how do you know what the diety can and cannot do and how much of their power is necessary (spell prep time) to do it?

I'm doing all of this because I hate magic, but no one has really come forward and put limits on it. Your explanations will go a long way to putting some clamps on the "Strange blinks them out of existence" insta-logic that Strange supporters use.

Skim through it again. I just added more.

As for portals to other dimensions, he can do that on his own. He can also use astral form as well. It's not always deities, only sometimes and especially when he needs more power.

As for removing the X-gene, only if he has more power or there's actually a spell for such a thing.

Everybody has a limit. Zantanna can't just tell Thanos to turn into a frog just because she said it backwards. She's mystical, but she does have limit. That's why the whole argument about her being the most powerful member of the JLA is b.s.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Skim through it again. I just added more.

As for portals to other dimensions, he can do that on his own. He can also use astral form as well. It's not always deities, only sometimes and especially when he needs more power.

As for removing the X-gene, only if he has more power or there's actually a spell for such a thing.

Everybody has a limit. Zantanna can't just tell Thanos to turn into a frog just because she said it backwards. She's mystical, but she does have limit. That's why the whole argument about her being the most powerful member of the JLA is b.s.

Interesting...so he can only do things if there's a spell for it or if the diety he invokes let's him do it. I'm going to remember all this stuff. it definitely makes magic less intimidating. I hope everybody is reading this! Bitches!

yeah! **** strange! he cant stop wanda!

and now im forced to pay an additional estimate of $100 for this "house of m(arketing)"

prof x can kill strange with just a thought, really

yeah! **** strange! he cant stop wanda!

prof x can kill strange with just a thought, really

Also, Strange's telepathy>Prof' X's telepathy.

Originally posted by long pig
He already has, by mind wiping her. Plus he didn't want to hurt her.

It's the other way around, Prof's telepathy is negated by Strange's eye.
Which would leave X as a normal crippled guy.

Also, Strange's telepathy>Prof' X's telepathy.

That's not necessarily true. The Eye almost never works instantaneously (I don't think I've ever seen it work instantaneously, but I'm leaving myself some wiggle room). Strange has to consciously call on the power of the Eye. Whenever he wants to uncover truth he says, "My all seeing Eye will uncover the truth." If he needs help, "The Eye will show me the path." I can't recall off the top of my head anytime that the Eye assisted Strange of it's own volition.

That said, I think Xavier can get to Strange much faster than Strange can use the Eye. Xavier could also fry his ass. People often forget that TPs have trouble with some opponets because they try take them out of the fight and not do permanent damage. There are very, very, very few people that would be able to oppose one of the top tiered TPs who wants to shut them down.

What would really rock, though, is if this battle took place on the astral plane. Who would win then?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
That's not necessarily true. The Eye almost never works instantaneously (I don't think I've ever seen it work instantaneously, but I'm leaving myself some wiggle room). Strange has to consciously call on the power of the Eye. Whenever he wants to uncover truth he says, "My all seeing Eye will uncover the truth." If he needs help, "The Eye will show me the path." I can't recall off the top of my head anytime that the Eye assisted Strange of it's own volition.

That said, I think Xavier can get to Strange much faster than Strange can use the Eye. Xavier could also fry his ass. People often forget that TPs have trouble with some opponets because they try take them out of the fight and not do permanent damage. There are very, very, very few people that would be able to oppose one of the top tiered TPs who wants to shut them down.

What would really rock, though, is if this battle took place on the astral plane. Who would win then?

Strange took on MoonDragon w/mind gem in a telepathic fight, without using the eye. And he won.

Strange is nearly as good without the Eye as X, and as soon as he conjures it, he's immune to telepathic assaults and it magnifies his already immense telepathy.
X isn't frying anything.

On the Astral Plane, Strange would win there too. He can still use magic and the eye on the astral plane.

Strange has already beaten the Shadow King on the Astral Plane, X would probably be less of a fight.

Well, just about everyone's beaten the Shadow King. That doesn't mean anything really.

When did Strange fight Moondragon w/the Mind Gem? I MUST HAVE IT!!!

And to say that Strange's TP is almost as good without the Eye as Xavier's is a very bold statement. I don't see him being nearly as good as any of the top X-TPs. That's not to say that he isn't good. But while TP is a tool for him, it's not his primary weapon like it is for TPs. His training hasn't been as rigorous. It would be different if he were like Doom and divided his time between to arts, but he focuses on one. Strange's province is magic, while Xavier's is the brainand all its nooks and crannies.

Being able to resist being controlled or having your mind read is very different than having your brain turned to mush. In this case, I think it'll come down to who gets the first shot. If Strange can employ the Eye first, then X is screwed. If not, then Strange is toast.

Nobody's even mentioning DOOM he can probably take Mag's and Pro X. by him self at least very close. Add Strange and it's overkill Strange and DOOM win easily. 😎

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Well, just about everyone's beaten the Shadow King. That doesn't mean anything really.

When did Strange fight Moondragon w/the Mind Gem? I MUST HAVE IT!!!

And to say that Strange's TP is almost as good without the Eye as Xavier's is a very bold statement. I don't see him being nearly as good as any of the top X-TPs. That's not to say that he isn't good. But while TP is a tool for him, it's not his primary weapon like it is for TPs. His training hasn't been as rigorous. It would be different if he were like Doom and divided his time between to arts, but he focuses on one. Strange's province is magic, while Xavier's is the brainand all its nooks and crannies.

Being able to resist being controlled or having your mind read is very different than having your brain turned to mush. In this case, I think it'll come down to who gets the first shot. If Strange can employ the Eye first, then X is screwed. If not, then Strange is toast.

Strange uses magical telepathy called mesmirsim, it's the exact same as normal telepathy, except it's based on magic, it's been shown tons of times that it's a bit more powerful than normal telepathy, magic telepathy has been used many times to shield themselves against high level normal telepathy

Strange is almost as good with his magic telepathy as X, he's had thousands of years practice using it, then add to that the Eye, and it's over before it starts.

I'll look for the moondragon fight. Do you think X could go head to head with her in a telepathic fight? I don't, at all.

It's Infinity Abyss #3 I think. Strange is standing, talking and MoonDragon suprise attacks him, Strange beats her in the mental fight and asks "How?" and Strange tells her "Part of being the Sorcerer Supreme is being as strong mentally as you are magically".

Anyway, technically Xavier is the most powerful telepath on earth, but it just happens to be that Strange is better at using mezmirism than Xavier is at using Telepathy.

X would own Moondragon. She's not nearly as skilled as he is. She and Emma Frost are quite similar, using their power to get what they want out of people. Moondragon's always been so self involved, except when she was in the Infinity Watch. I don't see her having any advantage over X, except the use of her legs.

Mesmerism and TP aren't the same. There's so much more to TP than reading someone's mind and/or controlling them.

Just because he fought in the War of the Seven Spheres doesn't mean that he used TP at all. That was a totally different ball game. Remember when he walked in on the Vishanti and the Trinity of Ashes going at it, and the magic was so bright that it made a nuke explosion look like a firecracker? These were the biggest of the big dogs. I doubt Strange is going to be trying TP on these people, the vast majority of which I'm sure had power on his level at least.

I meant he's had more practice than X, it's impossible to say he hasn't giving all the training he has. Strange has said telepathy and mesmirism at a high degree like he has, are almost exactly the same.

So, if what he said is true, his high degree of Mesmerism backed by the Eye would make him more powerful than X. Even if he wasn't the first to react, he's good enough to hold X off until he can conjure the Eye.

MoonDragon with the Mind Gem would own X, easily.