Iron Fist vs. Sabretooth

"I'm surprised obscure writer interviews continue to be peddled over using the plain presentation of canon, on-panel feats."

You're surprised that someone cited the writer's intentions with the character when you are arguing about using the writer's unprinted intentions of the character?
How surprising.

The plain presentation of the canon? You mean like how Sabretooth had 6 appearances leading up to Nov of 86 and 4 of them demonstrated he didn't have a healing factor? You mean like how he had zero "feats" of healing factor until "X-Factor" #10? You mean like that?
No, of course not, because some book almost got printed once by this guy who intented for the character to.. Oh.... Pfft.

.

Originally posted by jinzin
You're surprised that someone cited the writer's intentions with the character when you are arguing about using the writer's unprinted intentions of the character?
How surprising.

But, yes, keep extolling the superior, probative value of 2009-2010's Earth-161 as portrayed in X-Men Forever 2.

Originally posted by ODG
Yes, I am surprised that someone cites an obscure interview as having more precedence over the plain presentation of canon, on-panel feats by that every same writer.

Originally posted by ODG
In a canonically, immediate, contemporaneous appearance. Which also happens to be a real life historically, immediate, contemporaneous portrayal by that writer.

Originally posted by ODG
But, yes, keep extolling the superior, probative value of 2009-2010's Earth-161 as portrayed in X-Men Forever 2.

And you keep arguing against your strawman, demonstrating you have no understanding of the conversation you incidentally started.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm surprised it hasn't been made official, considering all the wacky retcons the X-books have gotten lately...

Stilt noted: "It also goes nicely with the clones we've seen in Kyle's and Yost's X-Force and Loeb's Evolution arc and its sequel."

I agree. Maybe Claremont's take had an impact on the direction those writers decided to go.

Originally posted by jinzin
Lmfao f*** outa here with your strawmanin' ass.
Literally not an argument that has been made. No one said the interview has "more precedence" over anything. You are gaslighting like crazy.

I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value.

I've got canonicity on my side. Don't act like the shoe's on the other foot here.

You guys are arguing that it does not have probative value. It might as well not even exist for purposes of a vs thread. But that would basically be arguing against its canonicity. So the burden of proof ain't on me, pal. After all, in a vs thread between these characters, I'm not the poster trying to banish their first on-panel fight from consideration.

And you called me a hypocrite for citing to Ms. Marvel's fight with Sabretooth while not accepting X-Men Forever 2. Don't pretend you didn't. And bearing down on that accusation? Yes, I will forcefully call you out on it. It's not my fault that you decided to partially hang your hat on such an easily dismantled allegation. Not my first rodeo, pal.

What's the value?
Cononicity isn't the issue... No one claimed "Iron Fist" #14 isn't canon.
But publishing chronology? Certainly not on your side.

"You guys are arguing that it does not have probative value." Bulls***.
Who's "you guys"? I'm a representative "you guys" now? No.
I've never once said that (quote otherwise). You've been asked what that value is half a dozen times or more now.

"It might as well not even exist for purposes of a vs thread." - Strawman. Quote where I said that here.
The fight can have value in some ways, and, not in others; Sabretooth's lack of damage soak, lack of excessive durability and lack of healing factor are present in the issue (and mostly further present in 5 of the next 5 "subsequent" issues), so the lack thereof is something to note compared to the "vast majority" of the appearances Sabretooth had that came next (including those he's had with Iron Fist). Without acknowledging that, there can't be any proper measurement. The fight has value? Great? What is it? That Rand is as fast as Sabretooth and probably more obviously skilled? Okay... Is there anything else?

"But that would basically be arguing against its canonicity." It would be, if that's what I was doing... Which I'm not. You either comprehend that, or you don't, or you do but you're a deceiver.

'"So the burden of proof ain't on me, pal. After all, in a vs thread between these characters, I'm not the poster trying to banish their first on-panel fight from consideration."

Who is? It isn't me... You can keep insinuating otherwise, but can you quote me saying that? ...Didn't think so...
And false, the burden of proof *is* yours now. You dismissed Sabretooth's early character portrayal being referenced (in context for proper measurement) with a childish label. Do you think Sabretooth had a healing factor that was clearly demonstrated and published in comics before Nov 86?
Then show us... Prove the value of your position.

.. Because I can give you four examples leading up to that point that explicitly demonstrate he didn't.
"Power Man and Iron Fist" #78 and #84. "Spectacular Spider-Man" #116 and #119... Both showcasing rather superficial wounds could put him down, and, that it took him weeks to months plus doctors to treat his wounds... All printed after "Iron Fist" #14...
What have you got?

"And you called me a hypocrite for citing to Ms. Marvel's fight with. "

You are factually a hypocrite are you not?
Let's pretend you aren't... Then how does that fight have any weight in relation to comics printed from 77 to Nov 86 in any way *other* than a retroactive one? Explain this....

Answer:

Originally posted by jinzin
What's the value?

Answer:

Originally posted by jinzin
Do you think Sabretooth had a healing factor that was clearly demonstrated and published in comics before Nov 86?/// (.. Because I can give you four examples leading up to that point that explicitly demonstrate he didn't.)

Answer:

Originally posted by jinzin
how does that fight ("Ms Marvel #24) have any weight in relation to comics printed from 77 to Nov 86 in any way *other* than a retroactive one?

^ I don't need to repeat my simple position that Creed's first fight against Danny has probative value. And I don't need to take your rambling insistence to the contrary in any serious manner.

But I will say this... when you jump in on the a$$-end of an ongoing discussion and ignore the conversation's course -- a conversation that you did not start -- you don't get to isolate sentences to twist my overall argument and accuse me of being a hypocrite.

I certainly don't have to apologize for calling you out from the get-go. Move the goalposts all you want, pal. I don't have to play.

Your out-of-left-field citation to Earth-161's X-Men Forever 2 storyline did elicit a sensible chuckle though.

Originally posted by ODG
No, Claremont and Vosburg did. Back in 1979.

Common sense.

Random non-sequitur is random.

You've seen the unfinished product in 1979?

Common sense = no changes done in 13 years? 🙂

Ooookay.

-Answer: "What's the value?"
-Answer: "Do you think Sabretooth had a healing factor that was clearly demonstrated and published in comics before Nov 86?/// (.. Because I can give you four examples leading up to that point that explicitly demonstrate he didn't.)"
-Answer: "how does that fight ("Ms Marvel #24) have any weight in relation to comics printed from 77 to Nov 86 in any way *other* than a retroactive one?"

In other words, you got nothin but more strawman arguments... Not surprised.
You literally responded to my post first; I didn't "jump into" some conversation you were personally in the middle of. You are insane.

Claremont's intentions were cited when you offered unpublished material as evidence for published works spanning 77- Nov86... You can either answer the questions you were asked or you are indeed being a hypocrite and a deceiver.. Your typical m.o.

"You've seen the unfinished product in 1979?"
Exactly... I think we can chalk this up to Styletime being 100% on the money that he's trolling and nothing more. *shrug*

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You've seen the unfinished product in 1979?

Common sense = no changes done in 13 years? 🙂

Ooookay.

To the plot and pencils? No.

Stop pretending like it would make any difference to you. N1gga, please.