Jedi Master Yoda vs. ROTS Anakin

I have to agree with you there, Subjekt. I may go a step further, and submit that I can most certainly see Anakin winning a saber battle in some cases. He's the best duelist of the PT. At least, sometimes, lol. The way that he fights against Count Dooku is exactly how Dark Lords of the Sith are trained to fight. Dooku didn't stand a chance at all and was killed in about 13 seconds. When we see people like Cin Drallig being tooled with one-hand while Anakin is Force pwning padawans, there can't be any denial that Anakin has already shown the ability to be the best, and beat the best.

He's a master of Djem So, which "is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling"; something often overlooked. According to Dooku himself, Anakin is the best Djem So stylist that he'd ever seen. This is the guy who pretty much hates Anakin and had lobbed his arm off no more than three years prior, who happened to be a lightsaber instructor for several decades, as well as held sparring sessions with the most skilled Jedi proficient in all spectrum of lightsaber combat.

Yoda's Ataru would exhaust him out, as he isn't Superman. It costs him tremendous Force reserves (he may be the most powerful Jedi, but he does have a disadvantage due to his natural weakness) to keep those acrobatics up, whereas Anakin will "keep on coming, tirelessly, ferociously" with nigh infinite stamina. He grows stronger as the fight progresses. This made Count Dooku expend more energy to keep up with him (which would be a further weakness for Yoda). He's physically stronger by far, and has demonstrated speed to keep up with Count Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Asajj Ventress. His skill speaks for itself. So, yes, Anakin can definitely win a saber duel.

Originally posted by Advent
I have to agree with you there, Subjekt. I may go a step further, and submit that I can most certainly see Anakin winning a saber battle in some cases. He's the best duelist of the PT. At least, sometimes, lol. The way that he fights against Count Dooku is exactly how Dark Lords of the Sith are trained to fight. Dooku didn't stand a chance at all and was killed in about 13 seconds. When we see people like Cin Drallig being tooled with one-hand while Anakin is Force pwning padawans, there can't be any denial that Anakin has already shown the ability to be the best, and beat the best.

He's a master of Djem So, which "is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling"; something often overlooked. According to Dooku himself, Anakin is the best Djem So stylist that he'd ever seen. This is the guy who pretty much hates Anakin and had lobbed his arm off no more than three years prior, who happened to be a lightsaber instructor for several decades, as well as held sparring sessions with the most skilled Jedi proficient in all spectrum of lightsaber combat.[/qoute]
What do you mean "specifically designed for lightsaber dueling". I would have thought they were all, in some ways, designed for lightsaber dueling and that Makashi was the ultimate form for saber combat.

[quote]Yoda's Ataru would exhaust him out, as he isn't Superman. It costs him tremendous Force reserves (he may be the most powerful Jedi, but he does have a disadvantage due to his natural weakness) to keep those acrobatics up, whereas Anakin will "keep on coming, tirelessly, ferociously" with nigh infinite stamina. He grows stronger as the fight progresses. This made Count Dooku expend more energy to keep up with him (which would be a further weakness for Yoda). He's physically stronger by far, and has demonstrated speed to keep up with Count Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Asajj Ventress. His skill speaks for itself. So, yes, Anakin can definitely win a saber duel.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He's the best duelist of the PT? I would have thought that honor goes to Sidious, Mace, and Yoda, but whatever.

Yes, he can be. How else do you describe someone who: is a master of a form devoted specifically to blade-to-blade combat, demolished Count Dooku in 13 seconds, effortlessly pwned Cin Drallig -- battlemaster of the entire Order with a proficiency in every form -- with one hand while Force choking his padawan with the other, is a physical powerhouse, has more raw power to draw on that anyone in the mythology (certainly in his own era), has demonstrated the speed to compete with top tier duelists, and is regarded as the best Djem So stylist that Dooku has ever seen?

Just because the trio you mentioned are regarded as "teh uber" doesn't mean that Anakin isn't right up there with them. I'm not saying that Anakin is -undisputed- the best duelist in the PT. You're thinking seems to be in set terms of "A>B>C", when there is no such thing when it comes to fighters of this level. The way he fights against Dooku, like I described, is exactly how Sith Lords fight. They tap into their rage to give them tremendous power, but don't let it consume them to the point where they are 'zerkers; instead, focusing it on amplifying themselves, and redirecting their anger onto their opponent. As a Djem So duelist, this matches his form's philosophy of domination "through superior firepower". So, his mindset and the means of his power is in practical perfect alignment with the form he chooses to fight with.

Would exhaust him out? Anakin will just keep on coming? Sorry but Anakin isn't on steroids, nor is he immune from tiring out. I don't see him lasting longer than Sidious did.

Anakin's Force reserves topple Sidious', they topple Yoda's. His stamina is almost limitless because of this huge pool of power in the Force that he has. He may not have the same extent of mastery as the two aforementioned, but he has shown himself capable of using those reserves to his advantage. And there's the obvious fact that this is a man in his physical prime, who doesn't suffer any of the ill-effects of aging.

Edit: According to both Obi-Wan and Count Dooku, Anakin never gets tired during their fights. He either remains at the same ferocious level or [apparently] keeps growing stronger. He fought Obi-Wan for almost 10 minutes (or was it 8, 9? *shrug*) without breaking a sweat or, at the very least, without slowing down or indication of slowing down any time soon.

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, he can be. How else do you describe someone who: is a master of a form devoted specifically to blade-to-blade combat, demolished Count Dooku in 13 seconds, effortlessly pwned Cin Drallig -- battlemaster of the entire Order with a proficiency in every form -- with one hand while Force choking his padawan with the other, is a physical powerhouse, has more raw power to draw on that anyone in the mythology (certainly in his own era), has demonstrated the speed to compete with top tier duelists, and is regarded as the best Djem So stylist that Dooku has ever seen?

Just because the trio you mentioned are regarded as "teh uber" doesn't mean that Anakin isn't right up there with them. I'm not saying that Anakin is -undisputed- the best duelist in the PT. You're thinking seems to be in set terms of "A>B>C", when there is no such thing when it comes to fighters of this level. The way he fights against Dooku, like I described, is exactly how Sith Lords fight. They tap into their rage to give them tremendous power, but don't let it consume them to the point where they are 'zerkers; instead, focusing it on amplifying themselves, and redirecting their anger onto their opponent. As a Djem So duelist, this matches his form's philosophy of domination "through superior firepower". So, his mindset and the means of his power is in practical perfect alignment with the form he chooses to fight with.

And no, I'm not thinking A>B>C. I'm thinking top tier, which is those 3. Anakin isn't on their level yet.

Anakin's Force reserves topple Sidious', they topple Yoda's. His stamina is almost limitless because of this huge pool of power in the Force that he has. He may not have the same extent of mastery as the two aforementioned, but he has shown himself capable of using those reserves to his advantage. And there's the obvious fact that this is a man in his physical prime, who doesn't suffer any of the ill-effects of aging. [/B]

Despite Obiwan knowing Anakin inside and out, Anakin lost a lot of credit when he lost that fight with Obiwan, regardless of how it happened.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't intend to explain it.

Great.

GL said that you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious..Not Anakin. And in case you tell me that GL meant in regards to force combat, this dealt specifically with the saber duel. He demolished Dooku after he tapped into his rage and unless I'm mistaken, Dooku isn't Sidious, nor Yoda, nor Mace.

"GL said" - he said you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious. Was he talking about Jedi or everyone in the PT? I would think Jedi considering he was talking about "The Jedi B-Team". Anakin isn't a Jedi. In title, perhaps, for some portion of RotS. But in nature, he's not, and he's a Sith Lord for part of the movie. All-in-all, what Lucas said doesn't mean much since there's no indication he was referring to a pure saber duel. Do you realize how stupid that sounds for you to suggest he was? Lucas is not making decisions for KMC versus fights that are ridiculously broke down into sub-sections. He's talking about the Force, he's talking about lightsaber skills, he's talking about experience. Everything.

"This dealt specifically with the saber duel" - Is that so? There was never a pure saber duel between Sidious and Yoda or Mace, so prove up. I already know that you can't prove up, so your point doesn't hold any water.

"He demolished Dooku after he tapped into his rage" - And? If I'm not mistaken, I said this exact same thing. This is the very reason for him being capable of defeating pretty much anyone in the PT. When he taps into that rage, he controls it. This is how Count Dooku fights. This is how Darth Sidious fights. This is how OT Vader fights. Nothing wrong there.

"Dooku isn't Sidious, nor Yoda, nor Mace" - And neither they, him. What are you getting at, by the way? Are you suggesting that Dooku isn't on their level? He's the ultimate master of the ultimate refinement of blade-to-blade combat, stated to be on level with Windu, and competed with Yoda. Dooku beats Sora Bulq, legendary Vaapad master, who's skill is considered to be among the greatest, like a red-headed stepchild. He's damn good. What's most impressive that Makashi users rigorously train against having their opponent disarm them or take their blade. Anakin did just that with in 13 seconds. Why didn't Yoda do that if he's so much better than Anakin and Dooku sucks so bad?

Yes, it actually does. Sidious, Mace, and Yoda are top Tier. As of ROTS Anakin is NOT.

But he is in terms of saber dueling. Dooku is, Anakin beat him. Drallig is regarded as top tier within the Order, Anakin tooled him. Anakin has proved that he's a top tier duelist. It isn't just words or hyperbole written down in some obscure EU source.

I'm not saying he can't contend with those three but his chances of winning are about as good as Obama actually doing something to earn his Nobel Prize.

Now if Obama does something to earn his Nobel Prize, you have to admit that Anakin can win against Yoda. 😛

Prove this. Potentially, maybe. Not as of ROTS. Prove his stamina is limitless. Prove Yoda or Sidious suffer any of the ill effects of aging you're describing.

"Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."

There's more and more. His battle against Obi-Wan indicates that his stamina is amazing. He battles the master of Soresu through heat and lava for some 10 minutes without tiring. At all. No indication that he would be stopping. At all. As a young man, his natural stamina is at his peak. We know that he has a huge pool of Force power to draw on; his raw power does surpass everyone in the era. Since his Force reserves are nigh limitless, his stamina would be as well.

"Prove Yoda or Sidious suffer any of the ill-effects of aging" - ROFLMAO, Beefy! Yoda hobbles around on a cane and is seen using a hovercraft to haul his ass around. Unless you want to write him off as lazy, just watch him at any point where he's not in battle. Sidious is a human. Sidious is almost ready to apply for senior citizenship (he's around 60 years old). Sidious in his 20's or even 40's was more in-shape than Sidious in his 60's, who had sat on his ass for 13 years. This can't be denied. Ta-da! I've proved that Sidious suffers from the ill-effects are aging.

Despite Obiwan knowing Anakin inside and out, Anakin lost a lot of credit when he lost that fight with Obiwan, regardless of how it happened.

"Regardless of how it happened" - Wow. How it happened is what determines how much credit is lost. To dismiss that would be a terribly illogical. Let's start with the fact that Anakin wasn't fighting like he does against Dooku. He ends up reverting back to the mindless berserker state that I mentioned earlier. That's number one. Number two, his psychological state was severely f'ed up. He was crazed. He choked his wife, the very reason he turned to the dark side, slaughtered children, and his Jedi brethren. He is shown crying at one point. The mental state is the most important aspect of battle. Bar none.

Number three, very important, the fight didn't even stay on even ground. They were fighting on the terrain through means of platform balancing, tight-rope swinging, and lava skating. Come on. With no terrain to manipulate, Obi-Wan would have likely lost. Number four, Obi-Wan was a damn good swordsman. Number five, Soresu is defensive, which would prolong a fight against an offensive form or any form; that leaves more room for mistake to capitalize on. Ataru isn't like that, neither is Makashi or anything other form.

And let's not forget that Anakin is a master of a form that devotes itself to lightsaber dueling, much like Makashi.

Originally posted by Advent
I've proved that Sidious suffers from the ill-effects are aging.

And the point that was being made here is not that Yoda is a weakling or tires out after doing a back-flip, but that Anakin would most certainly outlast him being younger and more physically fit by light years with a reserve of Force power to draw on that's described as "tremendous" even by Dooku's standards.

And Sidious wouldn't get tired, actually. He does have UNLIMITED POWAH! afterall, and fuels himself the same way Anakin does with a reserve of the Force that's huge and a mastery over it that surpasses Anakin's. But he is old. That part is still true, though irrelevant.

Damn you woman, that's what I was saying in this thread, http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=516144&pagenumber=10 where I was trying to tell other individuals how Anakin is among the top tier saber duelists.

I wouldn't put Anakin above Yoda though. Isn't Yoda the best saber duelist in the movies?

Originally posted by Advent
"GL said" - he said you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious. Was he talking about Jedi or everyone in the PT? I would think Jedi considering he was talking about "The Jedi B-Team". Anakin isn't a Jedi. In title, perhaps, for some portion of RotS. But in nature, he's not, and he's a Sith Lord for part of the movie. All-in-all, what Lucas said doesn't mean much since there's no indication he was referring to a pure saber duel. Do you realize how stupid that sounds for you to suggest he was? Lucas is not making decisions for KMC versus fights that are ridiculously broke down into sub-sections. He's talking about the Force, he's talking about lightsaber skills, he's talking about experience. Everything.

"This dealt specifically with the saber duel" - Is that so? There was never a pure saber duel between Sidious and Yoda or Mace, so prove up. I already know that you can't prove up, so your point doesn't hold any water.

"He demolished Dooku after he tapped into his rage" - And? If I'm not mistaken, I said this exact same thing. This is the very reason for him being capable of defeating pretty much anyone in the PT. When he taps into that rage, he controls it. This is how Count Dooku fights. This is how Darth Sidious fights. This is how OT Vader fights. Nothing wrong there.

"Dooku isn't Sidious, nor Yoda, nor Mace" - And neither they, him. What are you getting at, by the way? Are you suggesting that Dooku isn't on their level? He's the ultimate master of the ultimate refinement of blade-to-blade combat, stated to be on level with Windu, and competed with Yoda. Dooku beats Sora Bulq, legendary Vaapad master, who's skill is considered to be among the greatest, like a red-headed stepchild. He's damn good. What's most impressive that Makashi users rigorously train against having their opponent disarm them or take their blade. Anakin did just that with in 13 seconds. Why didn't Yoda do that if he's so much better than Anakin and Dooku sucks so bad?

Also, show me where Yoda was attempting to kill Dooku.

But he is in terms of saber dueling. Dooku is, Anakin beat him. Drallig is regarded as top tier within the Order, Anakin tooled him. Anakin has proved that he's a top tier duelist. It isn't just words or hyperbole written down in some obscure EU source.

Now if Obama does something to earn his Nobel Prize, you have to admit that Anakin can win against Yoda. 😛

"Prove Yoda or Sidious suffer any of the ill-effects of aging" - ROFLMAO, Beefy! Yoda hobbles around on a cane and is seen using a hovercraft to haul his ass around. Unless you want to write him off as lazy, just watch him at any point where he's not in battle. Sidious is a human. Sidious is almost ready to apply for senior citizenship (he's around 60 years old). Sidious in his 20's or even 40's was more in-shape than Sidious in his 60's, who had sat on his ass for 13 years. This can't be denied. Ta-da! I've proved that Sidious suffers from the ill-effects are aging.

Anakin's Force reserves topple Sidious', they topple Yoda's. His stamina is almost limitless because of this huge pool of power in the Force that he has. He may not have the same extent of mastery as the two aforementioned, but he has shown himself capable of using those reserves to his advantage. And there's the obvious fact that this is a man in his physical prime, who doesn't suffer any of the ill-effects of aging. [/B]

"Regardless of how it happened" - Wow. How it happened is what determines how much credit is lost. To dismiss that would be a terribly illogical. Let's start with the fact that Anakin wasn't fighting like he does against Dooku. He ends up reverting back to the mindless berserker state that I mentioned earlier. That's number one. Number two, his psychological state was severely f'ed up. He was crazed. He choked his wife, the very reason he turned to the dark side, slaughtered children, and his Jedi brethren. He is shown crying at one point. The mental state is the most important aspect of battle. Bar none.

Number three, very important, the fight didn't even stay on even ground. They were fighting on the terrain through means of platform balancing, tight-rope swinging, and lava skating. Come on. With no terrain to manipulate, Obi-Wan would have likely lost. Number four, Obi-Wan was a damn good swordsman. Number five, Soresu is defensive, which would prolong a fight against an offensive form or any form; that leaves more room for mistake to capitalize on. Ataru isn't like that, neither is Makashi or anything other form.

I dunno'. It's not like we see Yoda and Sidious or any characters doing a best out of ten brawl. We don't see how Anakin would stand up to Yoda either. But, we do know that he crushed Count Dooku in 13 seconds, which alone speaks for his skills.

Like Dooku says, Anakin is "half-Sith and he doesn't even know it", he mirrors the Sith way of fighting by not holding himself back. The dark side is more powerful. That's fact established by George Lucas. By controlling his rage, but still unleashing it, it allows him to make use of more use of his power. That power, as we know, is "tremendous". So, it'd be a stark contrast from someone like Clone Wars Anakin, who did fair well against Dooku, almost blow-for-blow with a blade -- he'd be much stronger (and this was demonstrated).

His lightsaber is described as his toy when he fights with emotions a la Sith Lords. A state that he would be fighting in ever since he came to a realization in RotS about how to use his bottled up emotions; he realized it was okay to use the full extent of his powers "for the greater good".

Unfortunately, killing younglings, and destroying his Jedi brethren took an emotional toll on him at Mustafar, and obviously disrupted that "clarity" he had previously. Notice how we see a close-up of Anakin (at that point, Vader) crying? Well, when he was fighting against Count Dooku, he thought that power and skill was being used for good; for the Jedi. After Operation Knightfall, he clearly realizes that he's become a monster and loses his mind. He was traumatically scarred even before Obi-Wan had strewn his limbs across the banks of Mustafar.

He's not a killer, like Dexter (*poke Nephthys*). But he became one, and couldn't deal with it after he did it (and kept on doing it). Hell, George Lucas even said that as OT Darth Vader, there was always a bit of light side in him. This is the guy breaking necks and Force choking his own men. Clearly, as Anakin, he ends up struggling with what he did at Mustafar, then going into a mindless 'zerker-like death frenzy; throwing him off-balance against Kenobi, for among other reasons.

I always view RotS Anakin as like against Dooku or Drallig, since that's his prime without the plot catching up to him, really.

Anyways, I'm not saying that Anakin is above Yoda either; only that he could compete with him and could likely take him in some situations.

Whoooooooo! Dexter! usaflag tank

(I swear, if there was a man I'd consider having, y'know, with, its him) wheelchair

It's not because Mace and Yoda are the only ones who can beat Palpatine, that those 3 are the top three duelists. Dooku is definitely not a tier below them: On Vjun, "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his [Dooku's] equal on neutral ground." I'm sure everyone understands the word 'equal'.

And this Dooku who was equal to Mace Windu, got tooled by Anakin.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It's not because Mace and Yoda are the only ones who can beat Palpatine, that those 3 are the top three duelists. Dooku is definitely not a tier below them: On Vjun, "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his [Dooku's] equal on neutral ground." I'm sure everyone understands the word 'equal'.

And this Dooku who was equal to Mace Windu, got tooled by Anakin.

Not to mention, Mace's vaapad should be more than enough to give him a victory.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Who couldn't defeat Obiwan. The A>B>C argument doesn't work..

Not to mention, Mace's vaapad should be more than enough to give him a victory.

I'm not even using an ABC argument... Advent already explained how different the duel with Obi-Wan was compared to the one with Dooku. If we are talking about Anakin's peak in RotS, we are talking about his state when stomping Dooku.

Mace's Vaapad is part of him, like Dooku's Makashi is part of him. The quote is clearly referring to saber combat: "But here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light." Which makes Mace and Dooku equals in lightsaber combat, and Dooku even better on a Dark Side boosted planet.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is just weak Advent. You love to play semantics, I don't know why. He said you have to be either Mace or Yoda to contend with Palpatine, that's all. I don't even know why you're arguing "nature", seeing as how Anakin is a jedi until the end of the movie. I haven't read the rest of the argument but this is extremely weak. And it's unlikely he was talking about anything other than lightsaber combat, because his response was regarding the lightsaber duel between Palpatine and the "B" team.

Can I point out one, blatantly false thing (among many others) in this attempt to play George Lucas?

I don't even know why you're arguing "nature", seeing as how Anakin is a jedi until the end of the movie

A Jedi holds themselves back. A Jedi doesn't use his emotions. A Jedi doesn't kill an unarmed prisoner. A Jedi doesn't slaughter Jedi. A Jedi doesn't kill children (Chuck Norris does). A Jedi doesn't kneel before a Sith Lord. A Jedi reports a Sith Lord. A Jedi adheres to the Jedi way.

As I said, Anakin being called a "Jedi" in nothing more than a title. And he's Darth Vader for the better half of the movie, and fights like Darth Vader in the very beginning of the movie.

Sidious never fought Mace in a pure lightsaber duel? What would you call it then? Part of Yoda and Sidious' match wasn't a saber duel? what do you call it then?

Uh, what do you call Force lightning with Sidious still being alive and all? Their duel was a duel to the death. It wasn't over because Sidious got disarmed. According to the novel, the Force was even used, IIRC.

In Yoda vs. Sidious, the Force is used from the very beginning. Watch it, it isn't hard to miss. So, there's no proof that Lucas was talking about a "pure saber duel", which just doesn't make sense.

No, you're reaching.

You repeat this a lot; it never turns out to be true. Reaching would be if I had to resort to "you're reaching" to combat your points. It isn't reaching to say that someone who has demonstrated the ability to beat the best (pwned, rather), can hang with the best.

Because he was able to demolish dooku, you're assuming he can do it to ANYBODY, especially individuals more powerful than Dooku.

1. I never said that he could do that to "anybody"; certainly not based on one thing. So, that's just framing my point extremely poorly. It's a feat that --when combined with numerous other displays and general logic derived from those displays-- supports my point about him capable of competing with Yoda.

2. You're not doing anything other than denying rather than discussing.

3. Dooku is hella' powerful. It's said that "aside from Yoda, perhaps only Mace Windu would be his equal on neutral ground", and he's bested Windu before. He was a heralded lightsaber instructor for decades, with proficiency in basically all the forms, and a mastery of Makashi (stressing "the ultimate refinement of blade-to-blade combat"😉. His experience expands to eighty years of both light side and dark side study. His dueling prowess is unquestionable, which is why he's considered one of the greatest ever.

I'm suggesting Dooku can't defeat Yoda in anything, and can't contend against Mace's Vaapad.

You're suggesting it, then good luck proving it. I'm not arguing either way, but I'd submit that saying Dooku isn't on Mace's level is absolutely stupid.

Also, show me where Yoda was attempting to kill Dooku.

Anakin didn't have to kill Dooku. He disarmed him...so, what's your point again?

Ah yes, not the source is obscure. Gotcha. Go ahead and define "top tier" then. He may be within reach of Yoda, Palpatine and Mace but there's nothing suggesting he's in the same league, or on the same level as either of them.

Besides what I just provided, right? "Not the source is obscure"? What is that supposed to mean? I was saying that Anakin's skills aren't just written down in a novel or some comic book. We see them demonstrated against an array of opponents and they are written down. Feats demonstrate skills, at least according to Webster's.

I wouldn't hold your breath if I was you.

Well, that's why blind faith is so fun.

No no, THIS is what you said

Yoda and Sidious' age become irrelevant when using the force. Prove that Anakin can TAP into his near limitless reserves. There's nothing suggesting he can just tire out superior opponents, rather than succumbing to their blades.

"No, no, THIS is what you said" - as if what I was saying contradicting what I said. Um, what I DID say was:

Originally posted by Advent
And there's the obvious fact that this is a man in his physical prime, who doesn't suffer any of the ill-effects of aging.

Anakin in his physical prime. That has nothing to do with the Force. I'm talking about naturally. The point that flew over your head was that Yoda expends much more energy to keep up his acrobatics than Anakin spends doing his thing. And, you'd like me to prove that Anakin can tap into his limitless reserves (which you admit; good going)? The RotS novelization is the proof. Everything Dooku knew from his Force was described as a "joke". Dooku sees it firsthand. Described as:

"A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

His firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here."

That's proof that Anakin can use his tap into his reserves, because there can be nothing else that makes Count Dooku's death so final. Anakin isn't holding himself back, this is repeatedly stated. He is using the full extent of his available power, yet never tiring. Your evidence of the opposite would be something to the effect of he hasn't reached his full potential. I agree that he hasn't, but suggesting that he can't draw on that raw power to sustain himself doesn't make any sense.

Except this is a weak justification. He fully intended to kill Obiwan, hell according to the fight scenes he fought better than he did against Dooku. You want to use his fight against Dooku to claim his superiority, I can use his fight against Obiwan to claim that he's not there..[b]yet[/i]

No, you can't. And it's total BS for you to just state things that aren't true. The fights were not the same whatsoever. The mental states were not the same. One fight did not play out on even ground (the loss), the other did (the win). I've provided a detailed argument for this. Rather than address that, you'd rather go with making unsupported claims.

Likely doesn't cut it Advent. He was unable to get any kind of strike in when they WERE on even ground.

Did you miss the choke hold? Did you miss the boot to the chest? Did you miss the boot to the face? According to the novelization, Anakin slams Kenobi into a wall with the Force at one point during the cut-away. So, "any kind of strike"? I just counted a handful of melee strikes, a dragon sleeper, and a Force push that show that to be blatantly false. And still, you haven't addressed the actual argument.

Advent
You're suggesting it, then good luck proving it. I'm not arguing either way,

He doesn't need luck. All one needs to conclude Yoda's blatant superiority over Dooku is comprehension of basic source material. I've proven countless times that Yoda's goal in Attack of the Clones was to capture -- not kill -- the Count. "Captured, Dooku must be, before more systems he rallies to his cause!"

In their Force contest, he only once attempts an offensive maneuver against Dooku, which oddly prompts the Count to shift to lightsaber combat. Likewise, Yoda also allows Dooku to escape, using the excuse to save Skywalker and Kenobi, despite the fact that he later professes in the Revenge of the Sith novelization that the right thing to do would be to sacrifice any Jedi even if it would only bring the war a day closer to culmination.

Dark Rendezvous further illustrates Yoda's considerable superiority: despite the fact that he has reservations about killing his former Padawan and that Dooku is the beneficiary of a world steeped in the dark side of the Force, imbuing his skills, not to mention the fact that Dooku initiated the fight by hurling a woman out of a window, forcing Yoda to divert his attention to rescuing her, Yoda still forces Dooku into a retreat.

Dooku is one of the very best, but had Yoda gone after Dooku the way he went after Sidious? All evidence points to the conclusion that it would end whenever Yoda wanted it to.

Not to mention Dooku's own regard and deep fear for Darth Sidious seems to suggest that both Sidious and Yoda enjoy a substantial advantage over the Count; in the end, Advent, Yoda and Sidious are better and more powerful and not by a small degree.

Advent
[b]but I'd submit that saying Dooku isn't on Mace's level is absolutely stupid.

I'm not sure he said that. Dark Rendezvous makes it clear that the two are pretty much equal. But given Mace's shatterpoint charism and the nature of Vaapad against dark siders, yes, I'd say Mace would win a lightsaber fight.

Where did the two actually meet? I was under the impression that they fought at some point? Maybe there was a walker involved?

Originally posted by Gideon
He doesn't need luck. All one needs to conclude Yoda's blatant superiority over Dooku is comprehension of basic source material.

[snip]

I was completely blazed when I wrote those posts, so just stop what you saying b/c nobody really cares. I was referring to Dooku and Mace.

I'm not sure he said that. Dark Rendezvous makes it clear that the two are pretty much equal. But given Mace's shatterpoint charism and the nature of Vaapad against dark siders, yes, I'd say Mace would win a lightsaber fight.

However, I do feel there's a difference between how Mace fights dark siders and how he would fight against a non-dark sider. Vaapad would naturally give him a leg up against the former, but his abilities may prove less effective against the latter; like say, someone like Qui-Gon Jinn. In that respect, it'd be more difficult to compare the two when talking about (personal) respective skill.

Anyways, I was not discussing who's better; I tried to outline that by saying "not arguing either way". Only if they are competition for each other or have comparable prowess, which they are, and they do.

rofl..

So, I'm wondering, how long you're going to sit back and leave your claims completely naked. The lone "rofl" seems to be that ol' awkward post-syndrome acting up again; damnit, and we worked so hard in therapy.

In regard to the match I'm entirely divided on the subject. On the one hand, in RODV Vader bemoans his sorry state of affairs to Sidious in bout of depression. Sidious then points out how much worse it could have been for him if his opponant had been Yoda, not Obi-Wan, which Vader accepts. This shows Vaders willing acceptance that Yoda> him. Though Vader is spiritually low at that point...

On the other hand, I agree with Advents idea about lightsaber combat. Y'see, we know that both Yoda and Anakin are above Dooku, but when Anakin defeats him it literally describes his victory to be overwhelming. Dookus skills are a joke to him. He can end the fight any time he wants, and does, simply by deciding that he wants to. Yoda on the other hand admits that he struggles with Dooku. He says that one 2 minute fight with him is enough training he needs for the entire war. Yoda's never in the position to end a fight with Dooku at any point he wants, like Anakin was, capture or kill.

In simplyfied terms Yoda>>Dooku and Anakin>>>Dooku.

Don't get me wrong I still think Yoda would win, but the fight would be much closer than some people give Anakin credit for. Though I have no idea how close it would/could be.