How the Jedi know about Bane

ok, so I think that the evidence points to the fact that the battle of Ruusan wasn't the sith extinction one thousand years before episode I. It is mentioned in both the movie and novelization and in the novelization of episode III, Yoda mentions Darth Bane by name and there are several references to the Sith ruling the republic at one point. I think that conjecturally, this means that Bane and his apprentice layed low and eventually began manipulating the chancellor until they finally took over the repubic. The Jedi found out about this and killed both of them, learning all about Bane's new laws of the sith. I supposed Bane's student took on an apprentice at some point, violating the law of two but preserving the sith legacy. This apprentice was either the first in a long line of hidden sith or could have been Darth Plagueis himself (using his power over midichlorians to keep himself alive for as many as 800 years). It's also possible that the jedi thought they had killed the apprentice, but the apprentice used the force to heal himself, meaning that Bane's direct apprentice was Plagueis. Either way, this would explain the Jedi's knowledge of the Sith laws of Darth Bane and the references in the episode III book.

This is called a plothole. GL's infamous for them.

It would make a damn good story arc though, or even a videogame.

True. Very true.

Nope, sorry, still contradicts GL. The Sith owned most of the Galaxy WAY more than a thousand years ago, according to the big man, and also according to the big man, the Sith had been doing the 'only two' trick for thousands of years, not just the last thousand. The Jedi know the rule because that is how it was like when fighting the Sith.

I am also pretty sure that contradicts what the EU says about Ruusan and Bane.

It's not a plot hole, Janus, because it is only the EU that is contradicting.

So I will repeat again- there is no commonality of established history for the Sith. Most EU sources disagree with each other in various weays.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nope, sorry, still contradicts GL. The Sith owned most of the Galaxy WAY more than a thousand years ago, according to the big man, and also according to the big man, the Sith had been doing the 'only two' trick for thousands of years, not just the last thousand. The Jedi know the rule because that is how it was like when fighting the Sith.

wrong. Lucas has NOT clearly defined the amount of time the only two rule has been around. if he has, please point out your source as I've never heard or read it, and that would shock the hell out of me if I'd missed something like that.

in Episode I, Ki-Adi-Mundi states: "The Sith have been destroyed for a millenia". So 1,000 years ago, something happened that led the jedi to believe that the Sith had been outright destroyed. There is no mention as to whether this event led to the "only two" rule, or if it had been going on before hand. Lucas hasn't clarified this, probably because he doesn't think its that big-a-deal. As far as the EU is concerned, this could mean EITHER the events of KOTOR I & II(at which point there were multiple Sith's competing for power) or the events of the Jedi vs Sith comic which explains Darth Bane's rise to power and the creation of the only two rule (which the Episode I novelization also credits Bane with creating). That comic, like KOTOR, features multiple (and by that I mean a few hundred) Sith all fighting for power. Now, the EU could simply change the date on the Jedi vs Sith comic, make it just prior to KOTOR the game, and then it would all make sense. The Darth thing would work, there would be two Sith in KOTOR I and a few Sith breaking the rules in KOTOR II which would actually make sense. However, the Jedi vs Sith comic would also have to take place after the first 5 volumes of the KOTOR comics (which ran in the mid to late 90's). Because in those comics, Sith like Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, & Marko Ragnos simply kept their own names, no Darth title used.

oh yeah, Ush, you beat me to pointing out Janus entertaining comment about the EU plot hole somehow being Lucas' fault. Good call Ush.

I just posted that. I hadn't even read what he posted.

GL quote from Time Magazine, April 1999:

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader"

There.

So GL pretty much puts the comics in a different light.

Like I say, the whole Sith background set-up is vague and contradictory. There is no one unified account that can reasonably made to fraw it all together.

Unless GL decides to pull it all together, which he won't because, as mephisto says, he doesn;t care enough (he built a concept, not a history, which is entirely fair enough), we are left with the EU sources which are not really in continuity with each other either.

Hence back to my original comment, which is that the whole thing is open to interpretation.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
GL quote from Time Magazine, April 1999:

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. [B]And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader"

There. [/B]

Ok. So they just need to say the Jedi vs Sith comic takes place before KOTOR the games and then the plot hole in EU no longer stands. I for one have never really considered the games canon to event the EU since they have to take a lot of liscene to make the game fun and exciting. But, if that's what Lucas thought, why does Ki say they've been gone for 1,000 years? not thousands? he says A millenia not simply millenia.

Err, that is exactly the point, Mephisto. They have been doing the 'only two' thing for millennia. But they have only beren considered extinct for *A* millennium.

Therefore they were already doing the only two thing when whatever event that caused the Jedi to think them extinct- their 'final' defeat- happened (and so the Jedi knowing about the 'Only Two' thing is pretty obvious- that's how the Sith were for much of the time the Jedi were fighting them!)

Therefore any EU which says that the 'Only Two' thing happened at their final defeat is wrong... therefore the Bane 'thing' given in EU is on dodgy ground because it dates him starting it 1000 years ago (offering no explanation as to how the Jedi then knew this) when this is not what GL had in mind.

I am afraid that the EU itself has no bulit-in rule that rules KOTOR out of its canonicity. Official soruces such as the website have accepted it in a way that, for example, the blatantly out-of-continuity games like Rebel Assault have not been.

it also gives no explanation as to how Yoda knew who Bane was in the episode III novel.