Welcome to the KMC Religion Forum!These guidelines are intended to improve your forum experience.
Set Aside Assumptions About the Other' s Position
The more you assume about the other person, the more likely it is that some of your assumptions will be wrong. That in turn leads to mistakes, misunderstandings, and missed opportunities. As much as possible, ask questions rather than simply making assumptions. Don' t assume that you know their religious doctrines. Don' t assume that you know their philosophical beliefs. You can make guesses, but try not to act on or base much on them.Claims Must Be Supported
There is no sense in even beginning a discussion if you have no plans or means for supporting your beliefs and defending the claims you intend to make. A mere statement of belief serves as nothing more than a psychological self-report and almost no one will care about that. To get people to care, you must articulate sound reasons for your beliefs and this entails supporting your claims. Unless you can do this, don' t bother starting.Insist on Logic & Reason
Not every attempted defense of one' s beliefs is equal. Some defenses are better than others and what separates the good from the bad is one' s ability to use sound logic and reason. The better you are at constructing a logical argument, the better you will be able to defend your claims as well as critique the claims made by others. Insist on this not just from yourself, but also from others. If you are willing to present your position in a rational, coherent manner, then you deserve a rational and coherent response, including critical responses. If you are unwilling or unable to present your views in a rational and coherent manner, then you should anticipate being dismissed with little afterthought. If your logic is poor, you won' t get anywhere.Discuss, Don' t Preach
There is a tremendous difference between discussion and preaching. Discussion is a give-and-take process where everyone contributes something. Preaching, however, is just one person getting up on a soapbox and haranguing others until they get tired enough to walk away. Be as creative and as diligent as you like in communicating your ideas, but don' t try to preach to the rest of us. People who enter discussions with the intention of preaching are disingenuous in their actions and should be cut out of the conversation.Be Willing to Learn & Change Your Mind
If you enter a conversation unwilling to reconsider your position and uninterested in the possibility of learning something new, then you are too closed-minded to help the conversation be productive. More likely than not, you' ll just end up preaching. You probably won' t learn anything and others won' t learn from you. A little humility here when it comes to what you think you know can go a long way.To conclude, I' d like to highlight an important KMC Forum Rule.
Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We understand that disagreements do arise from time to time, but we can all express our opinions without being sarcastic, demeaning, belittling or putting down other members. Please choose your words wisely. Don' t be rude. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully… without insult and personal attack. We expect our members to respect one another and show respect for others. This is not a place for you to push the bounds of civility and free speech.
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Originally posted by Storm
Anything you want to add or things you want to see left out, remarks?Claims Must Be Supported
There is no sense in even beginning a discussion if you have no plans or means for supporting your beliefs and defending the claims you intend to make. A mere statement of belief serves as nothing more than a psychological self-report and almost no one will care about that. To get people to care, you must articulate sound reasons for your beliefs and this entails supporting your claims. Unless you can do this, don' t bother starting.
I think there are many times when personal belief without support is valid in a discussion of religion. I also feel that JIA provides more support for his views than most, and yet his posts hold less validity for many than the majority of people stating their personal beliefs. Given this, support is extremely subjective in a religious discussion. If a request for the rational/support behind a belief are made, then the individual should be prepared to respond with such.
Claims against another's beliefs must be supported, claims as to personal beliefs that are not being used to invalidate a belief do not necessarily need support, imo.
Also, what constitutes support? JIA's use of the Bible when speaking to non-Biblical members does not constitute support, imo.
The problem comes when beliefs are stated as facts, and others mocked for not believing them.
People do have to understand that a belief is open to be attacked in ways that something supported by evidence really is not- which is to say you can attack a belief simply because you don't like it, unlike with something supported, where you would have to bring support to your attack for it to be a reasonable post. And if you are purporting that your views are credible among standard rational lines, then only a defence along such lines actually works. That being the case, using the Bible to validate the Bible doesn;t swing, because you have to claim entirely different rules to rationality, and that is simply not a reasonable thing to enter into, debate-wise.
JIA said a while back he was not here to prove anything, and so as long as he didn't open up lots and lots of threads to preach the same views, that was fine. But more recently a line has come where some people have stated their views as facts supported by evidence, but instead of backing this have simply mocked anyone who disagrees. JIA now very much seems determined to convince others or disprove them. Doing this by mere statement and not entering into a rational discussion about it... that is what is being ruled out here.
Originally posted by UshgarakThat makes sense. I think the wording of Storm's post needs to be cleaned up so that this is understood. When I read it, I understood it differently. Perhaps include much of your post in Storm's to clarify the purpose and intent of these guidelines.
The problem comes when beliefs are stated as facts, and others mocked for not believing them.People do have to understand that a belief is open to be attacked in ways that something supported by evidence really are not- which is to say you can attack a belief simply because you don't like it, unlike with something supported, where you would hgave to bring support to your atack for it to be a reasonable post.
JIA said a while back he was not here to prove anything, and so as long as he didn't open up lots and lots of threads to preach the same views, that was fine. But more recently a line has come where some people have stated their views as facts supported by evidence, but instead of backing this have simply mocked anyone who disagrees. That is what is being ruled out here.
I think this is wrong:
Be Willing to Learn & Change Your Mind
That would cancel the rules of not trying to convert people. I would say this is more suited:
Be Willing to Learn & Open Your Mind to Others
To add my two cents.
Any thread title with the opening.
"Your religion is BS"
"The followers of that religion are idiots"
Stuff like that should be either edited or closed. These are no open to discussions. They are intentional and aim at personal hatred or plain ignorance from the thread starter. We've had these in the past. Quite frankly, I wish not to see them again.
I' m working on it.
But I have a general complaint or remark in the meanwhile. I believe every human being deserves some basic minimum of respect right from the beginning, regardless of what they believe. Their actions and beliefs may lead to greater respect over time, or they may strain your ability to maintain that minimum. Be respectful of other members even when you get frustrated or angry. Treat others as you would like to be treated. I' m rather tired of the accusations I see members making towards each other, and I' d like to see that end.
Then I guess my comment would be that mods need to do a better job of enforceing these rules.
If members like JIA continuosly jsut state things and don't back them up...it just becomes spam posts. These aren't delt with and members like JIA have clearly crossed many lines in recent days. Now, I don't know if mods have delt with these issues privately, but certainly from a public perspective, it seems like nothing is being done. Perhaps this forum needs its own junior mod.
Originally posted by Alliancejust put him on your ignore list.........I am getting to where I don't really read much of his long Scripture posts anyway.
Then I guess my comment would be that mods need to do a better job of enforceing these rules.If members like JIA continuosly jsut state things and don't back them up...it just becomes spam posts. These aren't delt with and members like JIA have clearly crossed many lines in recent days. Now, I don't know if mods have delt with these issues privately, but certainly from a public perspective, it seems like nothing is being done. Perhaps this forum needs its own junior mod.