Originally posted by long pig
See? Even the allmighty Swank was a Wolvie fanboy!
If I could go back in time I'd be like "Check this! He's a space cop and he can make whatever he wants out of his ring by imagining it!
This guy controls the shadows and he'll flat out kill people who mess with his city or friends! Not sure you'd be into that yet though.
And this guy is just a man but he uses his genius to take out just about anyone. And he's got a robit suit! He's like Batman but you'll think this guy is cool.
Plus any of them would beat Wolverine into a pile of maple syrup and hockey sticks."
Official Abilities of Wolverine.
The problem with this topic is that there is a lack of objectivity and quite a few people who seem to be angry and not very objective. Wolverine has become an annoyingly overexposed and familiar character to many. Familiarity leads to contempt. For that reason people on these forums are always going to say that just about any character can beat Wolverine. Regardless of what examples or arguments are used.
But some facts need to be straightened out.
In the Marvel Universe Master Edition, Issue 4, Wolverine's strength, agility, and reflexes are listed as enhanced. In the Marvel Universe for Wolverine that came out in 2004 they were on level 4 (800 lb to 25 ton range). In the X-Men Marvel Universe that came out in 2004 this was the same. In the Marvel Universe for the Age of Apacolypse that came out in 2005, same thing. Level 4. Marvel Website: Level 4.
In the Earlier Marvel Universes Editions strength levels were not as accurate. In the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition Issue 16, in the appendix it lists Wolverine as having upper human level strength on the same level as the King Pin and Captain America. It also lists many (probably 30 percent) in the wrong category. Hyperion (Squadron Supreme) is able to lift way over 100 tons and they had him in the class 70 range.
In later editions, such as the Master Edition, it was decided by the editors at Marvel that Wolverine is not in the peak human range, but in the enhanced range. This means that he can lift around 1000 lbs. The comic books have always demonstrated that since the days that John Byrne started drawing the X-Men. In X-Men 111 Wolverine broke steel bonds without using his claws. In the Wolverine monthly series he lifted 6 people off of the ground and ran across a room and through a solid wall. He doesn't show off his physical abilities because he would rather his opponents did not know he had them. It works to his advantage to be underestimated.
Even now, in the newer Marvel Universes you will see his strength level at level 4. Level 4 covers a broad range or levels. It covers the enhanced human range (able to overhead press between 800 lbs and
1 ton), superhuman class 10 (able to overhead press between 2 tons and 10 tons), and superhuman class 25 (able to lift between 15 and 25 tons). Wolverine is in the lowest level. Check the Marvel website.
Having a regenerative healing ability that does not allow his tissues to degrade or decay, in combination with tensile strength and wieght of his skeleton would naturally give Wolverine low superhuman (enhanced) strength.
He would still only be about half as strong as Kraven was when Kraven was juiced up. Kraven was in the superhuman class 10 level on his potion (roughly near Spiderman, but a little weaker).
However, Wolverine's reflexes and agility would be superior to Kraven's whether or not Kraven was on the dope.
Healing Factor Consequences
Since it won't let me edit (and summerize) my last post. I will explain this again.
Wolverine's regenerative healing ability does not allow his tissues to atrophy or decay. This combined with the tensile strength of his skeleton, the weight he carries around, and the intense level of physical excercise he engages in, would logically result in low superhuman strength. Not in the range of Spiderman and certainly not the Hulk, but roughly in the range of the Man-Thing or Vermin who can lift about 1000 lbs. In fact, Wolverine fought Vermin and easily over powered him, proving that point. Likewise his senses, agility, and reflexes are also enhanced. His healing ablit allows him to achieve levels of physical strength just beyond that of olympic athletes, but only by a narrow margin. So it wouldn't be that apparent.
There are certain barriers that Olympic athletes can't get passed because a human skeleton would simply break down, and they are only able to perform at peak range for the best years of thier lives. Now imagine how strong they could get if they could extend those years? And also imagine how strong they could get if thier skeleton was unbreakable and thier ligaments and tendons would always be in absolute peak human condition?
I know a little something about strength. I lift wieghts and can dead lift 90 lb over my head with each arm individually and with relative ease. But a frustrating thing about wieght lifting is when you tear a muscle. I once injured my rotator cuff and it took me almost a year to get to the same level and my shoulder is still sore. So I am not just talking out of my butt.
The enhanced range is just beyond the peak human range. This means that it can be difficult for an observer to tell the difference between the two levels and it also means that characters such as Captain America and Daredevil can keep up with Wolverine and may appear to be as agile as he. But they aren't.
When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.
This is about Kraven not Lobo
Originally posted by long pig
So, I should just agree that Wolverine can beat Lobo?
Not happening.
When did I mention Lobo?
That's right I didn't.
You are not only bringing up a character that is entirely irrelevent to this, but one from a different universe?
Lobo is completely different than Kraven. Lobo could kill Kraven the Hunter by spitting on him at a high velocity. Lobo could probably wave his hand in the air and create a sonic boom that would shatter Kraven's skeleton.
Kraven and Lobo are nothing alike.
In ANY WAY.
Re: This is about Kraven not Lobo
Originally posted by Majestic_Lizard
When did I mention Lobo?That's right I didn't.
You are not only bringing up a character that is entirely irrelevent to this, but one from a different universe?
Lobo is completely different than Kraven. Lobo could kill Kraven the Hunter by spitting on him at a high velocity. Lobo could probably wave his hand in the air and create a sonic boom that would shatter Kraven's skeleton.
Kraven and Lobo are nothing alike.
In ANY WAY.
Calm down big boy....😄😛
I was just commenting that Wolverine and Lobo faught, and Wolvie won.
And going by what you said, I should accept it -because it happend-.
The Wolverine Vs. Lobo garbage was something people voted on. Writers had no creative control over it.
There have been many instances to prove Wolverine's physical abilities. They are just subtle. If there had only been one inconsistancy it wouldn't really matter but Wolverine has done many things that would require enhanced strength and agility.
That and it would be logical consequence of lugging around a 100 pound skeleton and having a musculature that only gets stronger and never degrades qualitatively.
Kraven would still be several times stronger than Wolverine and he would be faster in terms of covering distance, but slower in terms of reaction time.
Kraven would initially come up with some type of elaborate trap and catch Wolverine and probably overload his healing factor with bubonic plague or something. It is unlikely Kraven would be stupid enough to come in close quarters with Logan indefinately. He would jump in get a few blows and then haul off and shoot darts a Logan from the top of a building.
However, Kraven is arrogant and also crazy. Eventually, he is going to use whatever cheap means at his disposal to nuetralize Logan's healing factor and he will not be able to resist the tempation to come in close and finish the X-Man off. He will want Logan to know who beat him before he kills him.
Then it will turn out someone was faking and there is one less homicidal Russian.
Originally posted by Majestic_Lizard
The Wolverine Vs. Lobo garbage was something people voted on. Writers had no creative control over it.There have been many instances to prove Wolverine's physical abilities. They are just subtle. If there had only been one inconsistancy it wouldn't really matter but Wolverine has done many things that would require enhanced strength and agility.
That and it would be logical consequence of lugging around a 100 pound skeleton and having a musculature that only gets stronger and never degrades qualitatively.
Kraven would still be several times stronger than Wolverine and he would be faster in terms of covering distance, but slower in terms of reaction time.
Kraven would initially come up with some type of elaborate trap and catch Wolverine and probably overload his healing factor with bubonic plague or something. It is unlikely Kraven would be stupid enough to come in close quarters with Logan indefinately. He would jump in get a few blows and then haul off and shoot darts a Logan from the top of a building.
However, Kraven is arrogant and also crazy. Eventually, he is going to use whatever cheap means at his disposal to nuetralize Logan's healing factor and he will not be able to resist the tempation to come in close and finish the X-Man off. He will want Logan to know who beat him before he kills him.
Then it will turn out someone was faking and there is one less homicidal Russian.
thank you his inconsistencies are public knowledge now.
You are missing the point.
If its one event you call it an inconsistancy, if it is many different events it is the basis of a definition. We call this inductive reasoning. If writers such as Byrne and Claremont keep having Wolverine do things that require low level superhuman strength they might be trying to tell us something. The only inconsistancy is between the old edition of the Marvel Universes and the newer editions which correlate with what the character has always been capable of.
Wolverine Vs. Lobo was an inconsistancy. Wolverine could not beat someone who could possibly beat up Superman. It really doesn't count because it was not decided by what the characters are capable of, it was decided by people calling a hot line.
Wolverines enhanced strength, agility, and reflexes have always been there. He has thrown motorcycles, lifted 6 people over his head with one arm, broken steal bonds without the use of his claws, etc. He has caught arrows from high powered bows in mid-air (a feet I can assure you is impossible for an ordinary human; try it and see). These abilities, like his senses, stem from the fact that his bodily tissues never degrade or atrophy. Not only are they perfect, but because of the increased tensile strength of his skeleton they go beyond being perfect.
Unlike an olympic athlete who would have to train vigorously to maintain a level of physique, Wolverine is always as strong as he can possibly be. His equilibrium would be greater than any normal human as a side effect of his senses. His ligaments and tendons would never tear or would heal instantaneously. These factors grant that Wolverine, through vigorous excercise, would very quickly outstrip an olympic wieght lifter. And once he has gained that strength he would not lose it. However his strength, being in the enhanced range is not THAT MUCH greater than that of an olympic athlete. So a human in peak human condition, if he is a superb combatant, will be able to fight Wolverine one on one and not get creamed. Especially if the person is using a sword or has drugged Wolverine (Shingen Harada did this in his duel in Wolverine Limited 1).
Hence the term enhanced. Enhanced means that his strength is just beyond the range attainable by a normal human. People keep going by the old 1987 Marvel Universe which was wrong. This was corrected in later editions but apparently no one reads them.
Wolverine would still be considerably weaker than Kraven the Hunter. However, Wolverine has fought many characters in the vast superhuman range and handed them thier asses, so on that merit alone Kraven is not going to just mop up Logan.
Anyway, that is my two cents.