Originally posted by Dizzle
But the "2nd to TOAA" thing extending into DC so Jean can keep her status is pushing it a bit.
Nah, there were instances where the X-Men/Teen Titan crossover was used as evidence that Phoenix=Source and thus an aspect of Presence/TOAA. Something about PF flying into the Source at the end.
But GS goes on about PF>Lucifer or Michael. Funny thing since Lucifer goes through the Source and doesn't give a damn about it's powers.
Source=PF>Lucifer>Source=PF
PF>PF 😘
Originally posted by long pig
He can't be basing all this on that crossover....I don't believe that.
He's basing it on Endsong as well. He's also used Pre-Reckonned Beyonder saying Rachael had potential to revival Beyonder's power. But that's Pre-Reckonned Beyonder. The Beyonder now according to Marvel is an illusionist/cube being. Whether he fought Rachael or any of the other beings - it was said to be an illusion. And even then, the Rachael lost during that fight. Endsong is a reckon of Phoenix's power to multiverse level according to GS; but he's using a statement by Beyonder during SWII to point out that Rachael (witha portion of PF) gave the all powerful Beyonder trouble. He ignores that Beyonder's reckonning.
He's takes one reckonning (Endsong), and uses SWII Beyonder (which was reckonned later) to gauge how powerful just a portion of PF is. 😂
Originally posted by Beyonder
He's basing it on Endsong as well. He's also used Pre-Reckonned Beyonder saying Rachael had potential to revival himself. But that's Pre-Reckonned Beyonder. Beyonder an illusionist/cube being. Whether he fought Rachael or any of the other beings is not known. Even than, the Rachael lost. Endsong is a reckon of Phoenix's power to multiverse level according to him; but he's using a statement by Beyonder during SWII to point out that Rachael (without a portion of PF) gave the all powerful Beyonder trouble.He's takes one reckonning (Endsong), and uses SWII Beyonder (which was reckonned later) to gauge how powerful just a portion of PF is. 😂
Incorrect. Im not using jean as Phoenix of the white crown in endsong and comparing it to the pre rec beyonder. Theres no need to. Secret wars 2 was before phoenix was retconned into just another cosmic being so jeans status as the primal force of creation, her being referred to directly as a sephiroth which means a vessel for Gods essence (i forgot about the direct refence im just gonna make a new thread about it) all this still stood. Rachel wasnt an avatar. She was just a host for a bit of jeans phoenix essence due to her being jeans daughter. You must remember at this time jean was actually phoenix as is the case now. When pre retcon beyonder got a taste of jeans essense through rachel, it was too much for him and he fell to his knees. Let me put emphasis on the fact that the 86 retcon which depowered phoenixed hadnt occurred yet.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect. Im not using jean as Phoenix of the white crown in endsong and comparing it to the pre rec beyonder. Theres no need to. Secret wars 2 was before phoenix was retconned into just another cosmic being so jeans status as the primal force of creation, her being referred to directly as a sephiroth which means a vessel for Gods essence (i forgot about the direct refence im just gonna make a new thread about it) all this still stood. Rachel wasnt an avatar. She was just a host for a bit of jeans phoenix essence due to her being jeans daughter. You must remember at this time jean was actually phoenix as is the case now. When pre retcon beyonder got a taste of jeans essense through rachel, it was too much for him and he fell to his knees. Let me put emphasis on the fact that the 86 retcon which depowered phoenixed hadnt occurred yet.
Let me put it this way, when before SWII did it say that PF was multiverse level? When did it say PF had host in different universes? When before SWII did it say Primal Force was second to TOAA?
Now as for Rachael, prove to me that Beyonder actually fought Rachael - that this wasn't among the many illusions of the Beyonder? Why are you looking at an already RECKONNED event and using it as a credible feat for a character in Marvel CONTINUITY?
If your doing that then the PF is NOT Multiverse and more powerful than Eternity cause we can ignore Endsong's reckon like you've ignored Beyonder's.
Originally posted by Beyonder
Let me put it this way, when before SWII did it say that PF was multiverse level? When did it say PF had host in different universes? When before SWII did it say Primal Force was second to TOAA?Now as for Rachael, prove to me that Beyonder actually fought Rachael - that this wasn't among the many illusions of the Beyonder? Why are you looking at an already RECKONNED event and using it as a credible feat for a character in Marvel CONTINUITY?
If your doing that then the PF is NOT Multiverse and more powerful than Eternity cause we can ignore Endsong's reckon like you've ignored Beyonder's.
What is so hard for you to understand? Im not ignoring anything. Before he was retconned, Beyonder was a multiversal being who could easily humble LT and all other abstracts and he did. At that time it was actually real. Phoenix never got retconned until after Secret Wars 2 therefore its a fair comparison cos theyre both pre retcon. Beyonder took away the power he gave Rachel but with it because of her connection with her mother The Phoenix, Beyonder got an insight into Jeans essence and couldnt deal with it. Its as simple as that.
Try Uncanny Xmen 135, 137, Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43 as ive said about 10 billion times already. What more do you want?
Originally posted by GalacticStormTry Uncanny Xmen 135, 137, Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43 as ive said about 10 billion times already. What more do you want?
That it will prove Phoenix Force = Multiverse level right? And that it'll prove Primal Force of Creation = 2nd to TOAA? And that it's more powerful than LT right?
And I don't have to draw any speculations on any of it right? It say all of this huh?
Actually even better, why don't you post some scans. You posted a page from The End in your Phoenix Vs. MU. So why not post scans that proves your points. Again, I don't want a speculations on this and that from those scans. I mean scans of issues before SWII.
Ive given you issue numbers and quotes from the comics that is all im obligated to do. If after that you still dont believe me then its up to you to go and check out the comics yourself. I showed scans from the End because i never bought The End i instead downloaded and posted one of the jpeg files. Noone else has asked for scans after i used quotes and listed the comic references. That suggets to me that either they have in their possession the issues or that they believe me. Like i said im not obliged to go to the effort of acquiring scans, especially not after the quotes and comic lists ive posted and especially not for someone so disrespectful. Your on your own there son. Try asking around. 😱
*sigh* and I thought weve been over this. If you still believe that The Source is the ultimate being in DC, then fine, think that way. Ive given you enough reason(and facts) that The Source is not supreme for me to bother arguing with you again(Although I will admit that its mainly because we'll turn this thread to another off-topic discussion if we did, like what happened on the Lucifer vs Phoenix Force thread).
*sigh*??? synchro u need to READ my post before posting something like what u just posted(kinda rude too o well), i never said The Source is the Ultimate being, my gosh, I have said more then 1 time since our discussion The Presence is God/Yahweh. and i dont want this to turn into what happened in the other discussions.
ps. Phoenix force wins. 😱
Then what did you mean by this:
Originally posted by kevdude
it must be an abstract of The Source = TOAA, The Source in DC is above everyone and everything kinda like the meaning, "The One Above All".
And did I sound rude? really? hmm..... well if you got insulted by what I said, then I apologize........I guess.
well going by what the thread says. if AM is at full potential that means he would have had to destory and absorb all the multiverse, all of the Monitor's power, plus his huge ass "bigger than the multiverse" anti matter dimension. i believe he would go bat shit insane on the PF in his regular form let alone at full power. but i guess its becuase PF description just sounds cooler why everyone disagrees that AM would walk thru it like knee high swamp water.
PF being the force of creation is different from being creation itself(there's even and abtract enitity named creation BTW). she's ridiculously powerful but i wouldnt be so quick to start ranking her over all the abstracts why, becuase that doesnt mean that it was its power that created everything. TOAA created all the abstract conepts before he created "sentient life". before the first being drew breath or the first star was sparked there was a concept of Eon, Eternity, Entropy, Oblivion, and so forth. I believe(and this is just my opinion)that the phoenix force came into play when the multiverse started to replenish itself. especially going by the fact that the PF works off stuff being reborn and shit.
so AM has matter manipulation and energy absorption powers to an unfathomable extent, and quite frankly so does PF, but remember now......energy cannot be destroyed and what not so she cant uncreate him or wipe him off the slate, and neither can he do the same to the "Concept" of the PF(again seeing as how it is all about being reborn no matter what). but he'll smash the shit out of any avatar tho😄 so the PF would have to settle on a new avatar each time Am goes bat shit insane
Originally posted by manjaro
well going by what the thread says. if AM is at full potential that means he would have had to destory and absorb all the multiverse, all of the Monitor's power, plus his huge ass "bigger than the multiverse" anti matter dimension. i believe he would go bat shit insane on the PF in his regular form let alone at full power. but i guess its becuase PF description just sounds cooler why everyone disagrees that AM would walk thru it like knee high swamp water.PF being the force of creation is different from being creation itself(there's even and abtract enitity named creation BTW). she's ridiculously powerful but i wouldnt be so quick to start ranking her over all the abstracts why, becuase that doesnt mean that it was its power that created everything. TOAA created all the abstract conepts before he created "sentient life". before the first being drew breath or the first star was sparked there was a concept of Eon, Eternity, Entropy, Oblivion, and so forth. I believe(and this is just my opinion)that the phoenix force came into play when the multiverse started to replenish itself. especially going by the fact that the PF works off stuff being reborn and shit.
so AM has matter manipulation and energy absorption powers to an unfathomable extent, and quite frankly so does PF, but remember now......energy cannot be destroyed and what not so she cant uncreate him or wipe him off the slate, and neither can he do the same to the "Concept" of the PF(again seeing as how it is all about being reborn no matter what). but he'll smash the shit out of any avatar tho😄 so the PF would have to settle on a new avatar each time Am goes bat shit insane
If you read this whole thread and the other Phoenix threads which have popped up recently you'd know that the phoenix as stated in the comics is the 'sum and substance of all that is' Jean states in her phoenix form in Classic Xmen 8 that 'all that is i am' and also that ' nothing that exists is not touched by me"
In classic Xmen 24 phoenix says 'Now and forever,the power of creation is hers.Through her,the circle remains unbroken.From her comes the end that in itself is a new beginning.Hers is the fire that consumes,yet from its ashes brings forth a new life.'
In New Xmen it was shown that as phoenix Jean is the ultimate mutation. In Nxm 128 Jean tells Xavier that she’s feeling her perceptions expand,almost like she’s developing new senses,but everything is confused,melting together.(In Nxm 154, after the injection of Phoenix’s blood,Sublime will say that matter responds to his new senses).Xavier proposes a test😖he has to lift with her telekinesis some silver cutlery.She jokes,saying that it really is telekinesis for beginners.Then he barely touches a fork,and she realizes that she can feel his pulse,through the fork,thanks to her telekinesis.And here we can understand how Phoenix can also be seen as the Ultimate Mutation,the final stage of Evolution:Telepathic and Telekinetic Godhood.Telepathic Godhood means to be one with the universal soul,with all life: “The Phoenix is the sum and substance of all that lives”.Telekinetic Godhood means consciousness that extends itself over matter,permeates all matter;and ultimately sees through all the surface aspects of matter,energy,time,space and arrives to the the original vibration,the unified field, the universal wavefunction,the consciousness underlying all matter and energy,force and form: “The Phoenix is one with Creation”.In this way there is no difference between the “universal force” and the “ultimate mutation”:they really are the same thing seen from a different perspectives.So the “phoenix corps” may be seen as all those who reach this treshold,and the phoenix consciousness is the collective consciousness of the avatars that reachs out to them.When in Nxm 154 the world fades around Jean and is substituted by the “afterlife” this can also be interpreted as simply a shift in consciousness: seeing the whole crystal and not just a single facet of reality.
As it was shown and stated in uncanny and classic xmen before the retcon and as it has been shown since the retcon was scrapped recently in issues of New Xmen, Endsong and even F4 the phoenix is the primal force of creation responsible for the making of all of Marvel existence. The power of creation is hers. As phoenix she has reached both telepathic and telekinetic godhood which allow her to manipulte and have power over all life, time, space matter, all aspects of reality. She created everything, she is one with everything and she has power over all of creation.