Nah man, Wolvie is far from the embodiment of anything. When it comes to embodiment of Rage and Badassednosity, its the HULK!!!!!!!!!! He's also the embodiment of torn pants, the embodiment of Steroids, the embodiment of the "I-have-unlimited-strength-yes-I-said-I-have-unlimited-strength-Ive-told-you-many-times-now-dammit-whats-your-problem" stance, the embodi...
*looks at Sentry* oops offtopic. Sorry Sentry 😄
Originally posted by Synchro
lol!Anyway, maybe if the Endless has been shown to do more things and was shown in fights, then yes kgkg's logic would be ok. But the problem kg, is that theyre rarely seen to be doing anything, much less fighting. Dream is the only one weve seen do anything. We've never seen Destiny fight, weve never seen Death fight, weve never seen Desire fight, weve never seen Despair fight, weve never seen Delirium fight, and weve never seen Destruction fight.
So yes, agree with leo and whirly. We cant tell.
He claims he is God, but does that make him = Presence
Endless hasn't shown enough therefore abstract wins, just by feats
Remember Eternity is the living Universe, if the endless were born in the universe, or something to that effect they will be eternity’s avatars.
Eternity = all marvel universe hard to compete with that. especially if you don’t even know what the endless are capable of
Originally posted by leonidas
it really is impossible to say. the endless don't operate like this - ie they don't run out and battle, so they are not shown in these situations. you could take kg's stance and say abstracts win because endless haven't done anything, but that's kind of a nonsensical/ignorant (sorry, kg) position - just because they HAVEN'T doesn't mean they can't. and what's worse for this thread: they likely WON'T be shown doing the things that would warrant this kind of comparison. as i said, they're not written like that - and frankly, that's just the way i like it. not every abstract needs to be SHOWN obliterating a universe - if they are written well enough, certain things can be inferred. and if you know the endless, you know they are massively powerful - whether you've witnessed 'feats' or not.
I think its unfair kg. I mean, who's to say that the Endless couldnt have done something to the level that Eternity and others did, if only they were shown much in the comics? We havent seen ONE single feat The Endless(besides Dream) did. How can you compare feats when one of the combatants doesnt have one(or wasnt shown to us)?
The Endless are different from Wally, because, unlike him, they dont claim anything. They dont claim that they are super-strong, they dont claim that theyre God, they dont claim that they have done amazing feats. We can say that theyre powerful due to the reaction of people around them. leonidas already gave one example in his very first post in this thread.
The Endless arent avatars of Eternity either. Because Eternity and Endless came into existence at the same time ---> shortly after their respective Multiverses were created(except Destiny because he existed before it). And you should know why Death isnt an avatar of Eternity.
Originally posted by Synchro
I think its unfair kg. I mean, who's to say that the Endless couldnt have done something to the level that Eternity and others did, if only they were shown much in the comics? We havent seen ONE single feat The Endless(besides Dream) did. How can you compare feats when one of the combatants doesnt have one(or wasnt shown to us)?The Endless are different from Wally, because, unlike him, they dont claim anything. They dont claim that they are super-strong, they dont claim that theyre God, they dont claim that they have done amazing feats. We can say that theyre powerful due to the reaction of people around them. leonidas already gave one example in his very first post in this thread.
The Endless arent avatars of Eternity either. Because Eternity and Endless came into existence at the same time ---> shortly after their respective Multiverses were created(except Destiny because he existed before it). And you should know why Death isnt an avatar of Eternity.
Even gauging there power.
How can they match Eternity, Death ( multiversal ) Order , Chaos and countless others?
Why should we assume they can do what eternity can?
Why not? One of them earned the respect of the most arrogant, hard-to-please being in the Multiverse(Lucifer), that same person also wiped out an entire race with ease in a way that they never existed in the first place and he's not even the strongest of the Endless. The Kindly Ones, who are one of the most powerful beings in the Multiverse, were scared to death of... well... Death. When Lucifer threatened to call Dream on the Japanese Gods, they were scared shitless and immediately heed to Lucifer's demands.
Plus existing almosy as long as the Multiverse is always a plus 😄. AND theyre also abstract beings like Eternity and the others, and we all know how powerful abstract beings should be.
Now dont get me wrong, Im not saying that they can do something on the same level of what Eternity and the others did. Im just saying that its possible due to what Ive wrote above. They can or they cannot, we cant tell because we havent seen them much to accurately gauge their powers.
Originally posted by Synchro
Nah man, Wolvie is far from the embodiment of anything. When it comes to embodiment of Rage and Badassednosity, its the HULK!!!!!!!!!! He's also the embodiment of torn pants, the embodiment of Steroids, the embodiment of the "I-have-unlimited-strength-yes-I-said-I-have-unlimited-strength-Ive-told-you-many-times-now-dammit-whats-your-problem" stance, the embodi...*looks at Sentry* oops offtopic. Sorry Sentry 😄
A shot at Sentry huh? Very funny.... 👇 It's cool though Synchro. You are a genius when it comes to your posts. Very informative.
Haha! Im not good at jokes though, so I thought that was lame. Anyway, thanks for the compliment. And I didnt get the chance to give you props in the Best Debaters thread because of the offtopic discussions that are going on there, so I'll just give you props here. Your one of the best debaters and members in my book. leo, whirly and kg are also included. Props!!
Originally posted by MERCILOUS
So Death is an endless, and an abstract? Let me end the debate for you here then. DC Death, is the ultimate being, all including the presence answer to her in the end. Marvel Death has been put in a "coma."
Probably about right 😄 you can actually make some good points Mercilous, well done!
Wasn't Dream trapped by humans once using magic?
I think Destiny, being the oldest, is the most powerful. Death is second. Followed by Dream. And the rest.... So seeing as the abstracts don't dream, Morpheus doesn't have power over them, however they'd have a problem with Death. I think that's why Morpheus holds a lot of sway in the DCU universe - demons, pantheon gods all dream, take away their ability to dream and they have no hope.
I remember the reason why Dream was trapped was because he battled unknown forces in another Galaxy which made him tired and that led him to be captured by Burgess and his troops.
And yes KVD, you are correct about the rankng of the Endless. Their ranking is defined on who existed first. Destiny is the oldest so he's regarded as the most powerful followed by Death who existed after Destiny and then its Dream, Desire, Despair, Destruction and the weakest of them is the youngest who is Delirium.
About Morpheus not having power over the abstracts, I think he has an effect on them because I think that the dreams that Morpheus has power over is not only the dreams when you sleep, but also the dreams of your life. Meaning your purpose, your wants and needs and goals in life. I mean Dr. Destiny with some of Dream’s powers have no problem affecting people who arent asleep. And not only is he connected to the dreams of all the beings in multiverse but he’s also connected to the dreams of stars and planets(courtesy of Sandman: Endless Nights). And last time I checked planets and stars dont sleep, but they atleast has the purpose of creating and sustaining life.
So yeah, I don’t think Dream will be useless in this battle. The Abstracts may not sleep but they still have a purpose and they also have their wants and needs from time to time. I meand doesn’t Eternity loathe Adam Warlock and wants Warlock to disappear or something? If that’s the case, then that falls to Dream or if Eternity REALLY REALLY wanted Warlock gone, then Desire can also affect him since Eternity now desires it.
Another ability of Morpheus is to inflict the dreams of other people into you. This is especially effective against abstracts who has killed someone before. Dream can have the dreams of the one they killed put into them. Flooding them with it making the killer kinda confused and also staggering them with it(sometimes killing them).
Absolutely, Synchro. Dream will be far from useless in this battle. While the abstracts essentially form the entire universe and are far above petty desires, they still have dreams. Death wanted a balance between the living and dead. Eternity wanted the gauntlet from Warlock, or at least the Reality Gem. Oblivion wanted to tip the universal balance in his favor using Maelstrom.
anyone notice MERCILOUS said "DC Death is the ultimate being, all including the presence answer to her in the end." i don't believe The Presence answers to any of The Endless. he was here before any of them, also wasn't DC Death scared of Lucifer?? if thats true then Death would no way have anything over God.
<<I remember the reason why Dream was trapped was because he battled unknown forces in another Galaxy which made him tired and that led him to be captured by Burgess and his troops.>>
thanks for fielding that one, sync. i wasn't looking forward to cracking that book, but i knew there was something more to the story than he was 'simply trapped'. though he was indeed, trapped.