Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
does any money come with it?

anyone have anything wrong with my reasons for Ragnos' power?

I have no qualms with your reasoning, in fact, I agree with them and commend you for a well put argument.

However, most individuals will simply state that what we have is IMPLIED power, and not actual power, and it is still, after all, impossible to tell which individual was more powerful.

Also, in addition to having extraordinary physical strength, he was also a master of the force.

I agree with Glentract here in Ragnos' power. But Illustrious, I seriously just want to get this overwith, this, err, hostility that you seem to have towards me. Maybe I'm just being sensitive, but I think that saying I don't know waht the hell I'm talking about based on the fact that I didn't know Ragnos and Sadow weren't Master and Apprentice kind of borders on hostile, don't you think? I've tried to tell you that that fact is irrelevant to the thread, and I thank you for pointing out the master/apprentice mistake to me, but you're taking it way too far. You start dissing me because I didn't know that little fact, and act like it makes the thread completely null and void.

Back to Naga Sadow; you seem to have misread, misunderstood, or purposely ignored my last four posts on this matter, so for the last time, listen. I never said, or even implied that Sadow's star destroying ability would mean he is weak in combat. I have absolutely NO idea where you got that from. What I said, if you re-read the posts, was that Sadow's ability was just a technique, and that that technique alone would not affect his combat skills. However, that ability proves that he is well versed in the Sith arts, and obviously would make a dangerous foe. Too complicated for you? If you took a moment to completely read and consider the meaning of the posts instead of scanning it and then making rude comments, I wouldn't even be saying this now. Please don't even repond to this, as your post will most likely just aggravate me more, and have me waste more time arguing.

Despite this, I think you do make good points, and would prefer to have a more civil encounter with you on the next thread.

But Illustrious, I seriously just want to get this overwith, this, err, hostility that you seem to have towards me.

I think that saying I don't know waht the hell I'm talking about based on the fact that I didn't know Ragnos and Sadow weren't Master and Apprentice kind of borders on hostile, don't you think?

I have no hostility towards you. I just pointed out the flaw in your argument.

I didn't say you didn't know what you're talking about. I said you made a false conclusion.

Back to Naga Sadow; you seem to have misread, misunderstood, or purposely ignored my last four posts on this matter, so for the last time, listen. I never said, or even implied that Sadow's star destroying ability would mean he is weak in combat. I have absolutely NO idea where you got that from. What I said, if you re-read the posts, was that Sadow's ability was just a technique, and that that technique alone would not affect his combat skills. However, that ability proves that he is well versed in the Sith arts, and obviously would make a dangerous foe. Too complicated for you? If you took a moment to completely read and consider the meaning of the posts instead of scanning it and then making rude comments, I wouldn't even be saying this now. Please don't even repond to this, as your post will most likely just aggravate me more, and have me waste more time arguing.

You said, and I'll quote it:

Don't forget, Sadow's Star Crushing ability is just a technique. A difficult technique, but a technique and skill nonetheless. Think of it as the ability to paint somethin very well. Would that help you in a fight? I thought not.

Immediately following when you rank Exar above Sadow.

I merely corrected you in saying that it is uncertain that his technique, and the prerequisites thereof, will not help him a duel.

Is that too complicated for you?

Effectively, what you're saying is: "Sadow's starcrushing technique does not translate into good dueling, ergo Exar is better than Sadow."

I corrected the flaw in this, because I said you DO NOT KNOW if his techniques and prerequisites thereof, will have an impact in his fight; AND because the entire conclusion is false. The postulate does not result in the conclusion.

If you rank Exar above Sadow for no particularly reason, all I ask is for you to clearly state you have no reason to believe this other than your gut feeling. I don't want you to spread misnomers across the board any more than there already are.

I never ONCE said that you thought Sadow was weak. I just said your conclusion was not accurate. Get it?

The star crushing technique could involve a lot of push/pull or other Sith force power prerequisites, which could very well come in handy in a duel.

Despite this, I think you do make good points, and would prefer to have a more civil encounter with you on the next thread.

I have no qualm with debating with anybody, provided they remain within the limitations of a good debate. If someone decides to use logical fallacy; I will point it out, that is how I will operate with anyone. I think it is very fair and civil.

Fair enough. I think you have me beat here. 🙂

And no, I'm not saying that Exar is better than Sadow because Sadow's ability doesn't translate into dueling ability. I'm merely stating that point because many people believe that the ability to destroy a star, or more accurately manipulate its power, does not necessarily mean that its practitioner is invincible. I think that Sadow would give anyone a run for their money, including Luke (OMG!), Revan (NO!!!), and Kun himself. I believe that Sadow's knowledge of this ability implies a great knowledge of the Sith Arts. However, Exar Kun also possesses this ability, though I believe he utilizes and performs it differently, correct? So, essentially what I am saying is that Sadow's power does not make him invincible. That's it. He would of course had to be incredibly skilled and power to be Marka Ragnos' successor as the Dark Lord, in dueling skill, knowledge of the Force, and raw power. That is all.

I agree with everything you have just said. I would put Exar and Sadow on a similar level, and since Exar is a superior level than Ulic, which we do have evidence for, I would say Sadow is superior to Ulic. If anything, I feel that Sadow has exhibited the same level of destructive abilities with the force, and it is implied that he is a strong and capable Sith Lord in his own right.

It is also heavily implied that Ragnos was far his superior, given that even a dying Ragnos could scare Sadow. Therefore, it is of my opinion that Ragnos is at least a bit better than Naga Sadow.

Given the Sadow is comparable to Exar, who is superior to Ulic, and that Ragnos is likely (though uncertain) superior to Sadow. I would have to give this match to Sadow and Ragnos.

That is, of course, only my take.

And yes, Exar has also made a star go supernova; though I do believe it was different.

Which I agree with. Wow.

One thing though- I was looking at something in the Essential Chronology of Star Wars today to try and pick up something on Ragnos and his time, and according to that, during that Golden Age of the Sith at 5000 B.B.Y., the Jedi had lightsabers. The basic models for lightsabers, with "ammo" packs, and had cables connecting to a fuel belt at their waists. If this is true, then Ragnos and Sadow would have some knowledge of lightsabers, albeit to a much lesser degree than Kun and his compatriot. Some insight onto this would be helpful- I thought lightsabers came after Ragnos and Sadow.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Which I agree with. Wow.

One thing though- I was looking at something in the Essential Chronology of Star Wars today to try and pick up something on Ragnos and his time, and according to that, during that Golden Age of the Sith at 5000 B.B.Y., the Jedi had lightsabers. The basic models for lightsabers, with "ammo" packs, and had cables connecting to a fuel belt at their waists. If this is true, then Ragnos and Sadow would have some knowledge of lightsabers, albeit to a much lesser degree than Kun and his compatriot. Some insight onto this would be helpful- I thought lightsabers came after Ragnos and Sadow.

We know Ragnos and Sadow used Sith Swords. The dates and facts around that era are hazy. I've heard that Ragnos was 5200 BBY; so perhaps Lightsabers as we know them are rather new, and was relatively foreign to Ragnos.

We see in KotOR and JK:A that a lightsaber and sith sword are comparable, and they can be used almost interchangably.

In fact, personally, I would rather have a sword that had lightning rather than a lightsaber. I assume that for JEDI, the purpose is to maintain order and peace for the Republic, and it is easier to do that without spooking people with a 40 inch sword clipped to your waist.

For my theory, I don't feel that swords are obsolete; I think they were replaced in FUNCTIONALITY by the easier to carry and wield lightsabers. Would this necessarily impact this dream match up of Kun/Ulic vs. Marka/Naga? I don't think so. But it is interesting to note.

Exar had a duel-bladed LIGHTSABER, and Ulic had a lightsaber, while Marka and Naga used swords; it's an interesting matchup indeed.

I agree. So Ragnos and Sadow had new lightsabers in their time, but not personally, so the technology was all but story and myth seeing as how the Sith didn't have contact with Jedi for millenia. So its Ragnos with his Dark Sith Sword and Sadow with his sword, against Exar's double-bladed lightsaber ad Ulic's lightsaber. No, it won't dramatically affect the outcome of the duel, but I think it will give Kun and his apprentice somewhat of an advantage.

Marka did have a rather cheap scepter also. And I don't know exactly how much of an advantage lightsabers have over Sith Swords.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that the Sith didn't have contact with Jedi for millenia.

The Jedi and Sith used to be one entity, and then after the schism, they went their seperate ways.

The Sith came up with Swords, the Jedi with Lightsabers. Remember that the Sith did practically die out by the time Exar and Ulic were around, and Exar and Ulic were first trained as JEDI padawans, who later fell to the darkside (Ulic was later reconverted). So the issue of them using lightsabers may be just for familiarity.

I see swords and lightsabers being parallel, not with one being dramatically more effective than the other.

The issue is that lightsabers have become more refined because the Jedi Order has continued after the Sith Order fell apart; but in general, I don't see a huge advantage gained either way.

I agree.

Good that we can actually agree 😉.

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Wow, the Sith are among us.