Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Darth Malak and Bastila

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
- With Obi-Wan: remember that Nick Gillard, the man responsible for the lightsaber duels in the PT, stated that Form III was heavy on defense and blaster bolt reflection, using close movements with little effort. He also said in effect that a form III master would be virtually impervious to attack. However, neither would this master be able to neccessarily gain the advantage. And since we don't know if Bastila is heavy on Juyo, Makashi, or whatever, we can't say for certain just how close they would be in combat. But keep in mind the FMV of Bastila in KOTOR I, on Revan's flagship. She singlehandedly destroys a dark jedi just using the single blade of her lightsaber. She is far from some mere padawan and an amatuer. And lastly, Bastila along with Malak has had a multitude of experience versus other Force using, lightsaber wielding foes with the intent to kill (ANd not some academy training session) for several years.

I want you to keep in mind that the only one that ever defeated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel was Dooku. Now Dooku is not only clearly more powerful than Obi-Wan he is a master of form II and he practioned lightsaber combat and force use for more than 70 years when he defeated Obi-Wan (AotC and RotS). So he has two or three times the experience of Bastila. Also remember that Anakin / Darth Vader (maybe as old as Bastila but unquestionable more powerful) didn't manage to kill Obi-Wan.

- Lastly, Shatterpoint does NOT make Mace Windu god. Remember that. Matthew Stover, author of Shatterpoint and the resident expert on the ability, is clear to point out that, while Mace has the natural ability to sense weak points in things via the Force, he is still a mortal man and can be defeated. The usual logic around here involves Vaapad>All else. Get over it... Vaapad is a rare and new fighting style, but it is, again, not the Golden Ticket to whupass.

I'm not saying that Shatterpoint / Vaapad making Mace undefeatable - at least Anakin + Sidious did kill him.

Although you have Mace Windu, who in terms of lightsaber combat is very close to Yoda facing Malak. Mace has the advantage of using a form that Malak doesn't know about. He had more training with a lightsaber than Malak (something like 50 years practice with that weapon), invented his own style at the age of 13 and practiced that for 40 years.

For Vaapad itself: Nick Gillard said that it is better than the normal form VII (Juyo) and we now that Juyo is equal to form II when it comes to lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. What does that mean ? That Vapaad is better than form II in a lightsaber duel ? Possible.

Now add the Shatterpoint ability and Mace might very likely be able to take anyone else in a lightsaber fight. The only exceptions (for me) are Yoda, Revan (close) and Tulak Hord. Now Malak is clearly not on Revans level and therefore I have to say that Mace can take him.

Even if not so. I have no doubt that Obi-Wan can take Bastila faster than Malak can take Mace and therefore it will still end with Mace + Obi-Wan vs Malak and Malak getting killed.

Well, Obi-Wan is incredible, I will not deny that. But until I have more solid evidence stating that Bastila (Someone the Jedi Council was willing to allow to mentor a reborn Revan on a suicide mission, someone they sent onboard to confront Revan) is indeed much weaker. I mean, Obi-Wan was good, but I don't believe he was a true Form III master until ANH really. Close, but not entirely mastered yet. But I am simply playing devil's advocate for Bastila; she and others like Ventress get the short end of the stick often.

As for Juyo being as good as Makashi at lightsaber combat, I have yet to see anything regarding that. I truly hope you aren't refering to KOTOR stats like you did earlier, since those are the very definition of non-canon EU material and don't count for anything.

[QUOTE=4459634]Originally posted by Nai Fohl
[B]I want you to keep in mind that the only one that ever defeated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel was Dooku. Now Dooku is not only clearly more powerful than Obi-Wan he is a master of form II and he practioned lightsaber combat and force use for more than 70 years when he defeated Obi-Wan (AotC and RotS). So he has two or three times the experience of Bastila. Also remember that Anakin / Darth Vader (maybe as old as Bastila but unquestionable more powerful) didn't manage to kill Obi-Wan.

I'm not saying that Shatterpoint / Vaapad making Mace undefeatable - at least Anakin + Sidious did kill him.

When did ani and sidoius beat MAce>?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Well, Obi-Wan is incredible, I will not deny that. But until I have more solid evidence stating that Bastila (Someone the Jedi Council was willing to allow to mentor a reborn Revan on a suicide mission, someone they sent onboard to confront Revan) is indeed much weaker. I mean, Obi-Wan was good, but I don't believe he was a true Form III master until ANH really. Close, but not entirely mastered yet. But I am simply playing devil's advocate for Bastila; she and others like Ventress get the short end of the stick often.

As for Juyo being as good as Makashi at lightsaber combat, I have yet to see anything regarding that. I truly hope you aren't refering to KOTOR stats like you did earlier, since those are the very definition of non-canon EU material and don't count for anything.

Is anakin Juyo i keep forgeting, if so then watch him and dooku fight in AOTC very, very similar moves. Maka obviously being a bit better since its the true form of saber to saber fighting, but juyo is similar as i mentionned. I watched the last fights in AOTC a few times, i know what im talking about.

Now.... Vaapad and its Juyo roots are shown by Mace alone. Maul uses Juyo in its unfinished form. Basically it is wild, seemingly unconnected movements that draw on a well of Force energy and an almost at-ease mind during battle. Vaapad kicks it up a notch with a hint of the darkside, kept tenatively in check. But Juyo itself is actually quite acrobatic in some moves and quite close ranged and efficient in others. While it is doubtless an excellent form for most any situation, it really excels at little beyond pushing the Jedi rage envelope.

Anakin uses Form V, which is Shien. It's a revision of Form III (Soresu, as Obi-Wan and Luminara use) and the emphasis is on aggression, not defense. Also, blaster bolts are reflected with this form, not deflected as in Juyo, Niman, Shii-Cho or Soresu. Luke Skywalker is also a Form V practitioner. As to why it resembles Dooku's moves, chalk it up to either Makashi dabbling after AOTC by Anakin or sloppy choreography in ROTS by Nick Gillard (As I do... Note that Dooku is not actually using Makashi in ROTS but flips, twirls, and uses a high stance as opposed to a more fencing-oriented stance)

Mace and Obi wins.
Mace takes Malak thanks to his Vaapad and his great skills with a lightsaber and Obi-Wan kills Bastilla with help from his experience, knowledge in the force and saber skills that is probably beyond Bastilas.

Originally posted by kamikz
Mace and Obi wins.
Mace takes Malak thanks to his Vaapad and his great skills with a lightsaber and Obi-Wan kills Bastilla with help from his experience, knowledge in the force and saber skills that is probably beyond Bastilas.

Consider reading before you post. You obviously know nothing..

Oh SHien, dejmso, ah whatever im always confused. In that case I have no idea whether Juyo is simlar to Maka, but! If mace uses juyo to its unfinished form, it explains in the fight between him and dooku light side that dooku not yet mastered his form 2 was giving mace a good, similar fight. Although, they both lost their lightsabers and started to fist fight, point is that dooku is now a master at form 2, so his Maka is stronger than Juyo.
Note: Mace and dooku were at stalemate i nthier spar, meaning thier forms were maybe simlar and therefore they could predict every move.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Well, Obi-Wan is incredible, I will not deny that. But until I have more solid evidence stating that Bastila (Someone the Jedi Council was willing to allow to mentor a reborn Revan on a suicide mission, someone they sent onboard to confront Revan) is indeed much weaker. I mean, Obi-Wan was good, but I don't believe he was a true Form III master until ANH really. Close, but not entirely mastered yet. But I am simply playing devil's advocate for Bastila; she and others like Ventress get the short end of the stick often.

Well...the Jedi council hadn't much of a decission here. Bastila saved Revan from dying forming a close connection between them. Who else they should have send ?

Obi-Wan is a form III master in times of ROTS. It is clearly stated in the ROTS novel.

As for Juyo being as good as Makashi at lightsaber combat, I have yet to see anything regarding that. I truly hope you aren't refering to KOTOR stats like you did earlier, since those are the very definition of non-canon EU material and don't count for anything.

Oh sorry...I was again refering to KOTOR stats (actualy the KOTOR II manual). But in this case I can give another proof of that suggestion.

I practice Kenjutsu (Katana swordfighting) for nearly 7 years now. There are two kinds of bad ass opponents they can throw at you: Somebody that uses a lot precise moves in his fighting style and a total newbie. It's not hard to figure out why a precise fighter is a good opponent. A newbie is dangerous because he is totally unpredictable.

Now precission is naturaly form II in terms of lightsaber combat. Form VII is what happens when somebody who knows how to fight still acts like a newbie (ever seen "Drunken Master" ?).
They are equaly dangerous in a duel and that is the reason why I would say a Vaapad user is the worst possible opponent. Vaapad contains precission AND unpredictable movements and that's just terrible for a swordfighter. Believe me.

Very good evidence. You are correct.

I think the Jedi can take this. Mostly because I believe that Obi-wan can handle Bastilla and Mace and Malak are fairly close. Malak is stronger however... but would get wasted when double-teamed by Obi-wan and Mace at the same time...

Well, I dont think anybody mentioned this, but couldn't malak just obliterate Obiwan with the force before they even drew their weapons?

Since Obiwan would probably be focusing on Bastila, I dont think he would see it coming, if Mace was to yell out, "Watch out ObiWan!" Obi Wan would be force to draw his attention to the force attack Malak would do, if it was lighting he would have to block it using his lightsaber, if it was choke or some other unblockable force move, then Bastila would see her chance and strike him down, unless of course Malak just kills Obi like he did those two Jedi at the end of the starforge. Either way Id say Malak would be able to use his force powers on Obi, plague would be pretty good to use on Obi since it slows you down after which Bastila would take over.

And then Malak would just refocus on Mace, even IF Obi Wan could resisit Malak's force attack, which I dont think he could, he would still be a little disoriented, maybe enough for Bastila to take him down fairly quickly.

Doubt it. You have to be INSANELY stronger than someone in the Force to crush them outright (Yoda and the Emperor's Hand). Dooku incapacitated Obi-Wan pretty well into the fight, but I don't think Malak would be able to do this with Mace so hot on his tail.

Na, he would neutralize Obi faster than dooku did with the force