Darth Traya/Darth Sion/The Exile vs. Yoda/Mace Windu/Obi-Wan

Alright alright... I don't have the time to read mega posts like that back and forth, most of it recap. Let's go with what I know... seems nicer that way.

Kreia IS known to the Council. She is referenced to during the Exile's trial. Pay attention.

If Kreia has no idea about Ataru, how can she tell you about it directly? She may be no real practitioner, but she is bound to know it when she sees it, and perhaps even fend it off. She is a bloody Jedi master, you know.

Again, Kreia's Force mastery draws on both sides and is immense. If she can swat Vrook around like a ragdoll (Vrook who was the second in command of the council of the KOTOR era) she can possibly... POSSIBLY very well overwhelm Yoda. After all, Yoda does not draw on the dark side and must find alternatives to counter Sith attacks. IF it came down to saber combat, yes Yoda would likely win. But not easily. Not at all.

About the Exile: he must be reasonably good. I would assume he could (If he actually became Sith) challenge and defeat Malak after a hard fight. Can he take Mace? Probably. Mace might be able to beat him, but I wouldn't bet money either way. I'm gonna leave this undecided until KOTOR III, or else I'd be wasting my time.

About Sion: We never find out of Sion can be bisected or otherwise cut to ribbons. Assuming he can be, but the hatred and control of the dark side keeps him together (Which I believe it does) his very being might unnerve Obi-Wan after the Jedi master finds out Sion isn't gonna die easily. And Sion IS the leader of Revan's dark jedi assassin group. Hence why he is always ordering them around.

Originally posted by Fishy
She killed them, if you listen to her earlier on. She says losing your connection tot he force is like dying. She killed them.

Nope. You are missing something here.

The masters want to cut the Exiles connection to the force WITHOUT killing him. So that means it won't kill you if someone cuts your connection to the force. I thought she did that after playing KOTOR II for the first time but now I have come to another conclusion.

If you want another example: Nomi Sunrider did cut Ulic Quel-Dromas connection to the force and Ulic survived that.

I don't know what she did exactly. For me the most reasonable explanation is that she showed them what the Exile did feel when he activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Malachor: The death of thousands of people and force users. And that was simply too much for those three people. Yoda (RotS after order 66 is executed) and Ben (destruction of Alderaan) are both able to survive such events.

See...that's only a suggestion but she didn't kill those master with a force drain or by cutting their connection to the force. That's what I can say for sure.

@Janus:

About the Exile: he must be reasonably good. I would assume he could (If he actually became Sith) challenge and defeat Malak after a hard fight. Can he take Mace? Probably. Mace might be able to beat him, but I wouldn't bet money either way. I'm gonna leave this undecided until KOTOR III, or else I'd be wasting my time.

About Sion: We never find out of Sion can be bisected or otherwise cut to ribbons. Assuming he can be, but the hatred and control of the dark side keeps him together (Which I believe it does) his very being might unnerve Obi-Wan after the Jedi master finds out Sion isn't gonna die easily. And Sion IS the leader of Revan's dark jedi assassin group. Hence why he is always ordering them around.

Leaving Sion undefeatable you don't even have to discuss here because if he can't get killed he will just take hit after hit until all three Jedi are dead no matter if they had beaten the Exile and Kreia before.

At least I don't see Kreia beating Yoda and I even have a lesser believe in the Exile beating Mace. So you might end with a dead Obi-Wan and Yoda + Mace cutting Sion into pieces put them into little boxes and blow them into space. Something like that.

How big are these boxes now? lol... Sion is cheap. Hence why I brought up the idea of him being able to be chunked up and good. It would be the only finality to the fight.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Nope. You are missing something here.

The masters want to cut the Exiles connection to the force WITHOUT killing him. So that means it won't kill you if someone cuts your connection to the force. I thought she did that after playing KOTOR II for the first time but now I have come to another conclusion.

If you want another example: Nomi Sunrider did cut Ulic Quel-Dromas connection to the force and Ulic survived that.

I don't know what she did exactly. For me the most reasonable explanation is that she showed them what the Exile did feel when he activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Malachor: The death of thousands of people and force users. And that was simply too much for those three people. Yoda (RotS after order 66 is executed) and Ben (destruction of Alderaan) are both able to survive such events.

See...that's only a suggestion but she didn't kill those master with a force drain or by cutting their connection to the force. That's what I can say for sure.

The Exile felt so bad because he was responsible, I do not think Kreia could do something to them that would make them feel the same pain. It would be very hard for anybody to do that even Kreia, and if she could make them feel the guilt for killing an entire planet and then kill them she would be so much more powerful then I ever imagined.

How the hell DID Nomi cut Ulic off all by herself?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
How the hell DID Nomi cut Ulic off all by herself?

Well that is one of the never solved mysteries in the SW EU.

Nai could you answer my post, because if what you claim is true then Kreia would have no problem with Yoda at all.

Sure Fishy.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Exile felt so bad because he was responsible, I do not think Kreia could do something to them that would make them feel the same pain. It would be very hard for anybody to do that even Kreia, and if she could make them feel the guilt for killing an entire planet and then kill them she would be so much more powerful then I ever imagined.

No. The Exile did sense all that pain and suffering of the dying people through the force and than cut off his connection to the force to be able to survive that wave of feelings. That is what the game says.

Now if I'm right with my theory Kreia just created something like an illusion of pain and suffering an threw that one at the masters who were certainly overwhelmed by it. And she had to rest for several minutes to be able to do such a thing (probably focusing).

I don't know why but it seems that the Jedi in PT and OT times are less affected if they sense the death of thousands or millions through the force. Obi-Wan had to sit down when Alderaan was destroyed, Yoda nearly collapsed when all that Jedi were killed. Still they could survive such "waves" of feelings in the force. The masters in KOTOR times couldn't. They just seem to be more affected by the "living force".

Still I pretty much doubt that Kreia could do whatever she did to the masters during a fight. And if she can do that I suggest it would have a lesser effect on Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan than it had to the three masters on Dantooine.

The Exile did not know who or what cut his connection to the force he actually blamed the masters for some time. He was overwhelmed by it and if he did he did not know.

Even if Kreia had to focus for a few minutes think of what she did. Billions of deaths only affected on person the Exile but the rest was not affected by it because it was not their fault. Imagine what kind of power Kreia would have used to make them feel it. Whatever she did it made them feel responsible and made them here the echo, if your theory is correct.

Think of the power somebody needs for an attack like that. When Alderaan was destroyed Obi Wan felt bad of course he felt the waves in the force but he was not responsible. Nobody but the exile was affected by the waves at Malachor because they were not responsible. They may have felt bad but they did not die or lose their connection to the force.

If Kreia can con vice masters who have actually seen a lot of combat that they have done something so bad that it makes them die, then I congratulate her on something I would have previously thought impossible to do, her powers would be amazing.

And yes you are right she probably does focus when she sits down but she also waits for the Exile to come full circle there on his own.

Well, the Exile was pretty damn close for the suffering: he was at the epicenter of carnage, which he was directly responsible for, as was Bao Dur. The Zabrak, being stronger willed as his people are and less idealistic, may have been able to shrug it off. Also, his Force powers were well hidden. The Exile, however, was directly affected, hinting that at least pre-KOTOR II Exile was LS. Anyways, I believe that the movie Jedi are less affected because they are not the causers of the death and destruction.

Thats what I said...

Also, to add to that, the sheer number of Jedi who died instantly at Malachor V was immense, and must have affected all Jedi who survived, assuming any did besides the Exile. It is said many times that the Exile was the only one to face that kind of Force-backlash and survive.

Revan wanted everybody there to die that much was certain, keeping the Mandelorians away and making sure the Jedi there were screwed. What the Exile did was a last resort, I think a few of them may have survived, none of them were affected by it however.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Exile did not know who or what cut his connection to the force he actually blamed the masters for some time. He was overwhelmed by it and if he did he did not know.

It's revealed in the game that the Exile did cut his connection to the force himself. Yes. He blames the masters for it but that's only because he lost his memory.

Even if Kreia had to focus for a few minutes think of what she did. Billions of deaths only affected on person the Exile but the rest was not affected by it because it was not their fault. Imagine what kind of power Kreia would have used to make them feel it. Whatever she did it made them feel responsible and made them here the echo, if your theory is correct.

Think of the power somebody needs for an attack like that. When Alderaan was destroyed Obi Wan felt bad of course he felt the waves in the force but he was not responsible. Nobody but the exile was affected by the waves at Malachor because they were not responsible. They may have felt bad but they did not die or lose their connection to the force.

I think the main "power" behind the waves in the force didn't come from the responsibility but more likely from the death of x thousands of force users that died there. Mara Jade could sense the death of the Emperor through the Galaxy and that was just a single person dying.

The waves of Malachor might have weakened before they did hit any other force user. Malachor is at the outer regions - no part of the Republic. Still we don't know how powerful you have to be to sense such events.

If Kreia can con vice masters who have actually seen a lot of combat that they have done something so bad that it makes them die, then I congratulate her on something I would have previously thought impossible to do, her powers would be amazing.

And yes you are right she probably does focus when she sits down but she also waits for the Exile to come full circle there on his own.

To add some point to my theory here. I think Kreia could have used the Exile himself as a point of focus. She had a very powerful connection with the Exile and the masters were focusing on the Exile to cut him of from the force. Maybe Kreia just used her connection with the Exile and threw the wave of feeling through the Exile into the masters or just made the Exile show the masters what he had felt.

Just another possibility.

I very much doubt it... I still doubt your theory

The Exile felt the power because he felt responsible, he did not cut himself off from the force the guilt from the feeling and the dying screams just echoed in his head. It made him forget the force unable to hear it. It came from the responsibly he basically says it himself, I can't remember the actual quote its to long ago. But Nar Shaddaa master speaks about the guilt that came from his action and that, that deafened him to the force.

Originally posted by Fishy
I very much doubt it... I still doubt your theory

The Exile felt the power because he felt responsible, he did not cut himself off from the force the guilt from the feeling and the dying screams just echoed in his head. It made him forget the force unable to hear it. It came from the responsibly he basically says it himself, I can't remember the actual quote its to long ago. But Nar Shaddaa master speaks about the guilt that came from his action and that, that deafened him to the force.

OK. What did she do to the masters than ? As I said (and prooved I guess) a force drain or cutting them from the force won't kill them.

She drained the lives away from them. Making them deaf from the force does not exactly kill them either it would just make them feel like they are dead. They would still be alive but they are not. She just literally took the live from them, I don't know the technique or the name she just kinda used a very powerful absorb life

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