You're assuming there was a "betrayal" and a "denying" and that every word of the Bible is true cking. Think of how much a story changes if you tell it every month for a year...quite a bit. Now consider that the Gospels used in the Bible were all written around 40 years after Jesus' death. 40 years! I'm not discrediting the whole thing....far from it. And I believe in many of the teachings of the Bible (not all though). But to accept it like you might a news report or a history text is a bit absurd.
If you want a definitive answer...I don't know. If there was a "betrayal" maybe it was 'Peter' maybe it was Judas, maybe it was that the local authorities got tired of Jesus teaching and brought him in without any crime...systems of law were much different in those days. There's dozens of plausible explainations, but in focusing on "who denied Jesus?" you're missing the forest for the trees and ignoring the main body of the discussion.
Who told them what to write? God? Just like rulers throughout history have been intermediaries with God?? God wrote existence...maybe not the Christian God, but some higher power. My own flesh and blood, ability to reason, think, act, feel emotions, etc....those things are more gospels to me than a book that doesn't even bother to present all sides of the argument (Gnostics and such).
Enough of the gospels are similar enough that some of it has to be founded on truth...I'll throw you that bone at least. But when you can ignore equally founded arguments such as this one about Peter, or Jesus teaching reincarnation in the Gnostics, or even other religions...many of whom have just as much claim to the truth (see: not much) as Christianity, then that shows a blind faith toward something that has done nothing to earn your trust other than saying that it's the truth (which anyone can claim). I'm sure Jesus was a great guy...and bunches of his teachings were 'true'...I've even been on your side of the coin. But there's more out there.
Let's look for a moment at "Absolute truth" vs. "Relative truth" If you look at a table, you can say "This is a table" and it's true. (there's a "But" here). But that truth is relative to time and space. Destroy the table, or use its materials to make raincoats, or simply wait 1000 years. Is that still true??? NO. But the 'idea' of the table is true eternally. The "relative truth" is tht which we normally perceive to be "Real" and the asolute truth...the truer and more 'real' of the two, are those things we would generally categorize as "Not Real". Apply this thinking to the Gospels and I hope you see my point. The absolute truth of the gospels might be real (stress on the word 'might'😉. But the relative truth of the gospels, with the changing of church doctrine, burning documents, not including others, translation errors, etc. That truth has been gone for a long time.
-DM
oh, I'm not giving up...I'm just done saying all I will on this thread. I don't think I can put it any better than I did above, and I've had some conversations with metaphorical rocks over in the comic books forum...it's frustrating to say the least. I don't like getting into those types of discussions. Now, I'm not personally attacking cking (I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, and you're certainly always welcome to your opinion.) but such opposing views that can't sway the other person involved is hardly a meaningful discussion, but is rather an exercise in futility.
But I suppoe I rescind my last statement, if only because I'm typing a new post now...If I have anything else of merit to add, I certainly will.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
oh, I'm not giving up...I'm just done saying all I will on this thread. I don't think I can put it any better than I did above, and I've had some conversations with metaphorical rocks over in the comic books forum...it's frustrating to say the least. I don't like getting into those types of discussions. Now, I'm not personally attacking cking (I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, and you're certainly always welcome to your opinion.) but such opposing views that can't sway the other person involved is hardly a meaningful discussion, but is rather an exercise in futility.But I suppoe I rescind my last statement, if only because I'm typing a new post now...If I have anything else of merit to add, I certainly will.
I do understand. I simply ignore him.
Re: Saint Peter....Got to love em....
Originally posted by debbiejo
The myth of St. Peter was a thread which started in the 3rd century by the Roman papacy...It was a power stuggle inwhich the rival parties wanted the position of God's elite.One solitary passage in the Gospel of Matthew 16: 18-19 which Jesus made a pun saying Peter was the Rock..would find it's way into scripture...Unfortunately the so called Petrine passage was a forgery...[B]and deliberately inserted as a political ploy, to uphold the primacy of the Holy See...
The real roots of Peter lay in pagan Rome...the city of Petra or Pater Liber, assimilated to the Mithraic pater patrun (father of fathers). It has been called both Rock and Father....that is, a phallic pillar that's in the Vatican mundus since Etuscan times. Since his name also meant a rock, he was what the OT called "the Rock that begat thee" Deut. 32:18.
In older statues of peter he is seen with horns on his head....like the Horned God Bacchus (Pater Liber)
The churche's festival of St. Peter used to be held on the day of Janus, another pagan god, when the sun entered the sign of Aquarius, symbol of both the gate of the year and the Pearly Gate of Maria-Aphrodite...
Whatever Peters origin he stood in opposition to the female as shown by the Gnostic Gospels when Mary Magdalene said "Peter makes me hesitate, I am afraid of him because he hates the female race."
Marten Luther was so shocked by the decandt luxury of the popes courts that he wrote "If there is hell, then Rome is built upon it." And Peter had the keys to heaven even letting the Savior in????
Medieval legends also suggest the Petrine anti-feminism ...that Peter had a daughter and was very beautiful so he prayed that God would strike her with a fatal illness..It is also suggested in the Golden Legend that he tortured women to exorcise them, as to cause them to vomit up devils that possessed them along with much blood.
Got to love that Peter..... [/B]
* this is a blatant misinterpretation of "The Rock" in Matthew 16:18...
"And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18
* Christ did not said that the church He built was upon Saint Peter, but upon "This Rock"...
"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ."
I Corinthians 10:4
* it was Christ Himself... and being the "The Rock"...
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
Colossians 1:18
* Christ is the head of the Church He built...
* and i do not believe that the papacy was rooted from Saint Peter... this is a very common verse...
"And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven."
Matthew 23:9
* the title given to the pope is "Most Holy Father", i doubt Saint Peter would accept a title like that...
* and the "Vicarius Filii Dei"? the Vicar or the Substitute of the Son of God? Christ has no substitutes...
"But he, because he abideth for ever, hath his priesthood unchangeable."
Hebrews 7:24
* and it is unfair for Saint Peter to throw upon him those ridiculous accusations about anti-feminism... he got a wife and a mother-in-law stated in the Bible for goodness' sake... 😉
* this is a blatant misinterpretation of "The Rock" in Matthew 16:18...Meaning Jesus' teachings and since Jesus never wrote a book, and we know he was literate, because he read from the temple...........which Jesus are we supposed to follow?.....There are many writings about what Jesus said and did... .......Maybe the Jesus you are following is the WRONG Jesus."And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18
Re: Saint Peter....Got to love em....
Originally posted by debbiejo
The myth of St. Peter was a thread which started in the 3rd century by the Roman papacy...It was a power stuggle inwhich the rival parties wanted the position of God's elite.One solitary passage in the Gospel of Matthew 16: 18-19 which Jesus made a pun saying Peter was the Rock..would find it's way into scripture...Unfortunately the so called Petrine passage was a forgery...[B]and deliberately inserted as a political ploy, to uphold the primacy of the Holy See...
The real roots of Peter lay in pagan Rome...the city of Petra or Pater Liber, assimilated to the Mithraic pater patrun (father of fathers). It has been called both Rock and Father....that is, a phallic pillar that's in the Vatican mundus since Etuscan times. Since his name also meant a rock, he was what the OT called "the Rock that begat thee" Deut. 32:18.
In older statues of peter he is seen with horns on his head....like the Horned God Bacchus (Pater Liber)
The churche's festival of St. Peter used to be held on the day of Janus, another pagan god, when the sun entered the sign of Aquarius, symbol of both the gate of the year and the Pearly Gate of Maria-Aphrodite...
Whatever Peters origin he stood in opposition to the female as shown by the Gnostic Gospels when Mary Magdalene said "Peter makes me hesitate, I am afraid of him because he hates the female race."
Marten Luther was so shocked by the decandt luxury of the popes courts that he wrote "If there is hell, then Rome is built upon it." And Peter had the keys to heaven even letting the Savior in????
Medieval legends also suggest the Petrine anti-feminism ...that Peter had a daughter and was very beautiful so he prayed that God would strike her with a fatal illness..It is also suggested in the Golden Legend that he tortured women to exorcise them, as to cause them to vomit up devils that possessed them along with much blood.
Got to love that Peter..... [/B]
Have you ever heard of the dead sea scrolls?
Originally posted by debbiejo
Meaning Jesus' teachings and since Jesus never wrote a book, and we know he was literate, because he read from the temple...........which Jesus are we supposed to follow?.....There are many writings about what Jesus said and did... .......Maybe the Jesus you are following is the WRONG Jesus.
* and what is the RIGHT Jesus? the one from the Gnostics? the one that suits your interpretations? the Christ stated in the Bible is NOT the wrong Jesus... 😉
* and i was talking about the misinterpretation of "The Rock" that Jesus was pertaining in Matthew 16:18... "The Rock" that Jesus stated was Himself... upon Himself was the TRUE Church built upon... 😉
* i'm beginning to see the whole picture, ms.debbiejo... first, you call Saint Paul a heretic, now Saint Peter... am i correct to say that you doubt the integrity of ALL the books in the Bible? 😕
Re: Saint Peter....Got to love em....
Originally posted by debbiejo
The myth of St. Peter was a thread which started in the 3rd century by the Roman papacy...It was a power stuggle inwhich the rival parties wanted the position of God's elite.One solitary passage in the Gospel of Matthew 16: 18-19 which Jesus made a pun saying Peter was the Rock..would find it's way into scripture...Unfortunately the so called Petrine passage was a forgery...[B]and deliberately inserted as a political ploy, to uphold the primacy of the Holy See...
The real roots of Peter lay in pagan Rome...the city of Petra or Pater Liber, assimilated to the Mithraic pater patrun (father of fathers). It has been called both Rock and Father....that is, a phallic pillar that's in the Vatican mundus since Etuscan times. Since his name also meant a rock, he was what the OT called "the Rock that begat thee" Deut. 32:18.
In older statues of peter he is seen with horns on his head....like the Horned God Bacchus (Pater Liber)
The churche's festival of St. Peter used to be held on the day of Janus, another pagan god, when the sun entered the sign of Aquarius, symbol of both the gate of the year and the Pearly Gate of Maria-Aphrodite...
Whatever Peters origin he stood in opposition to the female as shown by the Gnostic Gospels when Mary Magdalene said "Peter makes me hesitate, I am afraid of him because he hates the female race."
Marten Luther was so shocked by the decandt luxury of the popes courts that he wrote "If there is hell, then Rome is built upon it." And Peter had the keys to heaven even letting the Savior in????
Medieval legends also suggest the Petrine anti-feminism ...that Peter had a daughter and was very beautiful so he prayed that God would strike her with a fatal illness..It is also suggested in the Golden Legend that he tortured women to exorcise them, as to cause them to vomit up devils that possessed them along with much blood.
Got to love that Peter..... [/B]
Man O man, I just love the sheer misogyny of ancient religions. 😆
Paul the TRUE founder of orthodox Christianity. His writings predated the Gospels. Paul laid down the basic doctrine. He copied more ascetic Gnostic sects of his time. Pauls Church was entirely patriarchal, women were forbidden to teach or preach in it.. Paul also laid the guilt of original sin on woman alone, absolving man from responsibility. Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was the transgressor. Pauls antipathy toward women and sexuality, since women were unclean leads to a suspicion that his esoteric doctrine was linked with the early Christian practice of voluntary castration. Rome revered the self-castrated god Attis and Paul was an earnest admirer of Roman culture as shown by the fact that he Romanized his name, changing it from Saul to Paul. Roman Christians later used self castration as an automatic ticket to heaven in the manner of Attis's priests. Paul suggested that he was among the divinely favored eunuchs. . He scorned the "natural" unmutilated man for his lack of spirituality. 1 Cor. 2:14. You had to lack a penis. In Gal. he said "I would they were even cut off which that trouble you" The word rendered "cut off" also meant "castrated:. Paul found the divine law of reproduction outdated because it brought forth "fruit unto death"...ie., more life doomed to die. The carnal mind or minding of the flesh is enmity against God. so, then the flesh cannot please God. Rom. 8:7-13.