Mace and Dooku vs Revan and Darth Malak

Originally posted by Darth Windu
*sigh* Akbar, sadly, you deserve your self-proclaimed title, except maybe spell it NOOB. Frontline experience does nothing in a battle? What is that? Would you rather fight a guy who spent twenty years practicing fencing in a dojo or a guy who was the most famed duelist of his time and killed dozens of people with his swordsmanship? Or here's one; would you rather go into a life-or-death fight with ten years of training or ten years of frontline combat? I thought so.

And the Jedi/Sith of KOTOR time fought the same as Jedi in SW times? Please. The Jedi of SW times fought droids and stormtroopers. The big one's fought a Sith Apprentice, and the two best fought a Sith Lord and lost. The Jedi of KOTOR times fought dozens, if not hundreds of apprentices on maybe Maul's or Assaj's level, a few Dark Jedi/Sith Masters on Dooku's level, and a couple of people on Sidious' level. Revan and Malak were above even this.

P.S.- It's called the JEDI CIVIL WAR for a reason.

Well lets see here, dooku sat back and practiced his skills while other jedi including anakin and obi wan fought in war, and dooku not only owned them in AOTC, but he owned obi wan in ROTS, and gave anakin a hard time, so really he sat back and did nothing, but still had the skills to take down someone who had fought in war, continously.

Ackbar, read my post.

I read it and i agreed with it. Except the Logic = PW3ned
Maybe Dooku was stronger than Sidious, he just never had the guts to actually take him on, same with vader, hell vader was just as strong as sidous, and could take him to.

I agree, dooku is good. Mace is also good, but revan and malak work as a team and would win, i made this post to read other peoples ideas, unfortunately it dident work.

I believed dooku and mace could pull something off, but other than that revan and malak would win.

- "Mace Windu is good, but he is not that good. Many people hear argue that Mace could NOT have defeated Sidious in an honest battle and that it was all a false."

We will never know.

I imagine someone will or has even already asked Lucas via interview. His answer would spell it out nicely for us.

If its been said in an interview i would have to pick it up and read it. But for now the movie shows sidious losing to mace.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I read it and i agreed with it. Except the Logic = PW3ned
Maybe Dooku was stronger than Sidious, he just never had the guts to actually take him on, same with vader, hell vader was just as strong as sidous, and could take him to.

I agree, dooku is good. Mace is also good, but revan and malak work as a team and would win, i made this post to read other peoples ideas, unfortunately it dident work.

I believed dooku and mace could pull something off, but other than that revan and malak would win.

Um correction...Vader was not as strong as Sidious after Obi-Wan finished strewing his body parts over Mustafar.

Thanks, I had forgotten to bring that up. Lucas himself says that mecha-Vader is perhaps 80% of Sidious.

as i said he is not stronger, i said about as strong as Sidous, meaning 80% is very close.

Lets put it this way, if dooku is stronger than Vader than he could take on sidous without any problems, it would be a very good fight though.

lets just make it simple, revan and malak win

simple is boring.

Let me do this:

Dooku = Jedi master
Dooku = Makashi master
Dooku = 13 yrs. Sith training
Dooku < Sidious

Vader = Jedi knight
Vader = Form V practitioner
Vader = ~25 yrs. Sith training
Vader < Sidious

If I use a system of 1 thru 3, 1 being the worst and 3 being the best, I do this:

Jedi padawan = 1; Jedi knight = 2; jedi master = 3
Sith training 10 yrs = 1; 20 yrs = 2 30+yrs = 3
Forms I = 1; II = 3; III = 2; IV = 2; V = 2; VI = 1; VII = 3

the totals are Dooku: 7, Vader: 7.

Seem even, don't they? But can Darth Vader keep Yoda at bay while dropping rocks on Obi-Wan and a younger version of himself? Didn't think so...

Well put. And ackbar, Dooku was eighty years old and a Sith Lord. That's kindo of like a sixty year old Shaolin Master against two Karate Blackbelts. You have a point there, but look at it like this. Dooku was more than twice as old as Obi-Wan and more than four times as old as Anakin. That's a hell of a lot of practice. And definetely didn't just sit idly all that time.

Well...

I first want to give some comment to the "KotoR time Jedi" > "Movie time Jedi" issue.

To believe that the KotoR time Jedi are generaly outclassing the movie time Jedi is wrong. The problem here is following: The KotoR time people might actualy be lightsaber duelists since most Jedi in the movie times are specialized in Niman, and the KotoR time people were always involved in wars against the Sith or other threats.

But actualy I would say the movie time people have a greater control and more knowledge about the force. The Jedi kept the entire knowledge of the KotoR time and simply added another 4,000 years of knowledge. For example their ability to block force lightning (Mace, Obi-Wan), reflect it (Dooku) or simply absorb it (Yoda) is not known in KotoR times.

If you keep that in mind the movie time Jedi that are not practicing Niman (form VI) might be actualy better than the KotoR time Jedi (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and so on...).

Now for the battle...
I will keep my oppinion that Dooku or Mace might be able to take Malak in a duel since they both have more experience with a lightsaber and with the force (50 / 80 years) and are masters of the duel form (Makashi) and Vaapad (something not known to Malak). But it would be a very long and close fight.

But Revan will simply outclass Mace and Dooku powerwise and also with a lightsaber. So I'd say he might take Dooku or Mace before the other one of them can take Malak. That would leave Dooku or Mace (whoever is to fight Malak) vs Revan + Malak which he obviously loses.

Even when Dooku or Mace can defeat Malak equaly fast than Revan can defeat his opponent (I doubt it) Revan will take out the Jedi that is left.

So...Sith win.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...

I first want to give some comment to the "KotoR time Jedi" > "Movie time Jedi" issue.

To believe that the KotoR time Jedi are generaly outclassing the movie time Jedi is wrong. The problem here is following: The KotoR time people might actualy be lightsaber duelists since most Jedi in the movie times are specialized in Niman, and the KotoR time people were always involved in wars against the Sith or other threats.

But actualy I would say the movie time people have a greater control and more knowledge about the force. The Jedi kept the entire knowledge of the KotoR time and simply added another 4,000 years of knowledge. For example their ability to block force lightning (Mace, Obi-Wan), reflect it (Dooku) or simply absorb it (Yoda) is not known in KotoR times.

If you keep that in mind the movie time Jedi that are not practicing Niman (form VI) might be actualy better than the KotoR time Jedi (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and so on...).

Now for the battle...
I will keep my oppinion that Dooku or Mace might be able to take Malak in a duel since they both have more experience with a lightsaber and with the force (50 / 80 years) and are masters of the duel form (Makashi) and Vaapad (something not known to Malak). But it would be a very long and close fight.

But Revan will simply outclass Mace and Dooku powerwise and also with a lightsaber. So I'd say he might take Dooku or Mace before the other one of them can take Malak. That would leave Dooku or Mace (whoever is to fight Malak) vs Revan + Malak which he obviously loses.

Even when Dooku or Mace can defeat Malak equaly fast than Revan can defeat his opponent (I doubt it) Revan will take out the Jedi that is left.

So...Sith win.

Just because it is not shown in KOTOR times doesn't mean Force lightning absorbtion is not known. Keep in mind that many Force powers used in the ancient times are unheard of in PT era. Hell, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace were the only ones to encounter and overcome Sith lightning: Obi-Wan casually blocks Dooku's minor blast with his lightsaber AFTER watching Anakin get rocked; Mace, perhaps caught off balance, barely redirects the lightning from Sidious; and Yoda on the second try and with some effort, I might add. Anyways, the idea that knowledge was actually expanded or was lost depends on how you tend to sort things...

In an era of war, such as KOTOR era, forms, abilities, and whatnot that is made for battle would be popular. After the Battle of Ruusan, such things might be forgotten. Makashi, for instance, was practiced and mastered only by Dooku. Sith were thought extinct. Battle-oriented arts atrophied, as they do in our time. COmpare a knight or man-at-arms in say, 1300s... Practising with a blade and bow every day save Sundays from ages 6 or 8 on up. The ability of this person is much more than, say, a person in our era who dedicates perhaps five or ten years later in life to some weapons training. The medievale era person also fights in real battles, in life or death situations to the point where the start becoming the norm, not the exception. Again, change in outlook, change in experience, change in abilities.

The only advances in the Force made by current era Jedi would have to be passive techniques. And I can't recall any at this time, can you?

Dooes anyone here think that Revan could take Dooku and Mace alone?

It's possible, yes. But really, at this stage in the game I won't argue it until I have a better scope of Revan's power from KOTOR III.

*uses his uber necromantic powers to raise this thread from the grave*

This would be one hell of a battle... some serious lightsaber action.

No it wouldn't, Revan alone'd put up a good fight, though probably go down, but with Malak at his side there's no way the duo can win.