ragnos vs. reven

Firstly, Jaden only used the scepter against Kyle ON THE DARK SIDE ONLY! Meaning Tavion didn't bring Ragnos back to life now did he? It's kinda funny you thinking you're always right and trying to rub it in just to find out you're wrong.

Yes, the same scepter you claimed "charged hundreds of Dark Jedi warriors that can use lightning" right? I like how you totally ignored what I said about reneging on your words.

Now I have never read anywhere that Sadow and Kressh feared him or at least as much as you say. Sure they didn't fight him, instead they were smart and merely waited for him to die. They didn't follow his orders when Ragnos came to them as a spirit now did they?

Next, Kun and Ulic DID NOT bow before him. I'm getting sick of you making up your little fantasies about what you wish happened. And you think I have bad arguments and total ignorance?

You like taking every little word literally, don't you?

Ok, take this literally:

What does Revan killing a bunch of people that have little or nothing to do with Ragnos prove? That just proves he can kill those little people that have nothing to do with Ragnos. It doesn't show he's stronger than Ragnos, or anything of that matter.

You claim I make up my little fantasies, yet you MUST post in everything thread concerning Revan, and you MUST argue that Revan has a chance. Oh please.

I also like how you threw out my perfectly logical Anakin analogy and decided to make it a personal attack instead. Yes, lack of logic is certainly strong with this one.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, the same scepter you claimed "charged hundreds of Dark Jedi warriors that can use lightning" right? I like how you totally ignored what I said about reneging on your words.

You like taking every little word literally, don't you?

Ok, take this literally:

What does Revan killing a bunch of people that have little or nothing to do with Ragnos prove? That just proves he can kill those little people that have nothing to do with Ragnos. It doesn't show he's stronger than Ragnos, or anything of that matter.

You claim I make up my little fantasies, yet you MUST post in everything thread concerning Revan, and you MUST argue that Revan has a chance. Oh please.

I also like how you threw out my perfectly logical Anakin analogy and decided to make it a personal attack instead. Yes, lack of logic is certainly strong with this one.

Have you ever played Jedi Academy? Seriously? That same scepter did charge hundreds of non-Force users into dark Jedi. Tavion siphoned Force energy from dozens of locations before and after charging some of them. You hardly even came close to proving me wrong.

If Revan killing a bunch of people has nothing to do with Ragnos, then Ragnos ruling over a bunch of people has nothing to do with Revan since it just proves Ragnos is stronger than them, not Revan. Don't bother playing this silly kid's game and debate logically.

Even Nai Fohl says Revan would hold his own against Ragnos. And again, for the too manyth time I've talked to you, read more of my posts and if I think Revan will lose, I don't hesitate to say so.

Your Anakin analogy was nothing like what I say for many many reasons. I list many accomplishments Revan has done, whereas you listed two or so and a bunch of speculation and/or beliefs from people. Next, I have never said Revan will own Ragnos since WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HIM. Look back and see that I have never said Revan will win. It's unfair to both to say that either is stronger. Once more you simply pretend I said things that I didn't. Please stop doing that. Your lack of logic is really starting to bore me.

Have you ever played Jedi Academy? Seriously? That same scepter did charge hundreds of non-Force users into dark Jedi. Tavion siphoned Force energy from dozens of locations before and after charging some of them. You hardly even came close to proving me wrong.

LMFAO. You here, don't even know what "game mechanics" mean apparently, and you're questioning if I ever played JK:JA. You claimed that the force energy within it was used to charge hundreds of Dark Jedi, and then its suddenly a surprise when it doesn't instakill a Jedi Master.

If Revan killing a bunch of people has nothing to do with Ragnos, then Ragnos ruling over a bunch of people has nothing to do with Revan since it just proves Ragnos is stronger than them, not Revan. Don't bother playing this silly kid's game and debate logically.

No, but Ragnos ruling over a bunch of people that have accomplished similar, if not greater feats DOES prove logically he is greater than Revan. Revan has done nothing even remotely impressive as blowing up a star. (And don't even try to use the Starforge argument here).

It means something because Ragnos ruled over the SAME people Revan later found artifacts from.

Even Nai Fohl says Revan would hold his own against Ragnos. And again, for the too manyth time I've talked to you, read more of my posts and if I think Revan will lose, I don't hesitate to say so.

Nai Fohl's words are not law.

I never said without sarcasm that Revan sucks, or that Ragnos is god. I claim to belive Revan is heavily overrated by individuals LIKE YOU.

You've also made EVERY attempt to peddle your favorite character.

You didn't post anything in the "Ragnos vs. Malak" or the "Ragnos vs. Exar Kun" threads, you have to post it in the REVAN thread because he's your favorite character, and you are a fanboy.

Admit this, and we can move on. You're just in a state of denial.

Your Anakin analogy was nothing like what I say for many many reasons. I list many accomplishments Revan has done, whereas you listed two or so and a bunch of speculation and/or beliefs from people.

Oh, so since I didn't monologue out a bunch of individual facts, it has nothing to do with Revan? It was a rough analogy.

I could go into an indepth description of what he did in the CLONE WARS and REVENGE OF THE SITH, but I won't do that because you SHOULD be able to get the point.

Is it honestly that hard to understand?

You're effectively saying that since we know Revan has accomplished Such and Such, he must be stronger than Ragnos. That's a load of crock.

Next, I have never said Revan will own Ragnos since WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HIM. Look back and see that I have never said Revan will win. It's unfair to both to say that either is stronger. Once more you simply pretend I said things that I didn't. Please stop doing that. Your lack of logic is really starting to bore me.

Your fanboyism is starting to annoy me.

I never said Revan was crappy.

You on the other hand said Ragnos DID NOT (not did not to our knowledge) kill anyone other than Simus.

Do you KNOW this? No. You are throwing out wild speculation.

That's what you call lack of logic, get a clue.

alot of you guys are just ignorant you say that any ancient sith would beat revan with ease. that wouldn't happen. ragnos i do believe to win this fight now due to furthur thinking on the situation. but it ouldn't be like ragnos would just stand there and kill him by blinking.

if you guys want to beleive it or not revan was very powerful and a great duelist. i belive either him or kun is second to in most powerful sith and ragnos to the first but no matter what any of you say it wouldn't be and easy challenege for ragnos.

You said it would fry Revan yet it didn't kill Katarn. The putrid smell of more fanboyism.

Oh you seriously got me there. Revan didn't blow up a star with sith magic so he can't be anywhere near the power of a guy who didn't even do it.

Once more you claim I'm a fanboy because I guess you just are too stupid to debate with me and use support so you must call me a fanboy. Yet I post that Revan will lose if I think he will (happens more often than you think) but you said Ragnos would nod and Revan will kill himself. You're a far greater fanboy than I will ever be.

Once more you continually ignore everything I have posted so I'm not gonna bother responding to your next post. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT REVAN WILL BEAT RAGNOS UNLIKE YOU!!!!

That's what you call lack of logic huh? Yet even though Ragnos has only defeated one person we know of and never done anything impressive that might show his power you think he would nod and Revan would kill himself.

Your blatant fanboyism, pretending I've said things when I haven't, constant insulting, and lack of support has bored me too much. I'm here to debate with someone who can do it. Not waste trash with you. So seriously don't even bother responding to this because I'm sick of your lies, fanboyism, and insults and I'm not going to even respond to whatever load of garbage you're gonna say next on this thread.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
alot of you guys are just ignorant you say that any ancient sith would beat revan with ease. that wouldn't happen. ragnos i do believe to win this fight now due to furthur thinking on the situation. but it ouldn't be like ragnos would just stand there and kill him by blinking.

if you guys want to beleive it or not revan was very powerful and a great duelist. i belive either him or kun is second to in most powerful sith and ragnos to the first but no matter what any of you say it wouldn't be and easy challenege for ragnos.

I agree. At the very least it would be a challenge for whoever wins. A certain Retard here has no logic at all and thinks Ragnos can nod and Revan will kill himself. Well said xxxpoppunker.

You said it would fry Revan yet it didn't kill Katarn. The putrid smell of more fanboyism.

Do you know what sarcasm is?

Janus says he'd flinch and Sadow and Kressh would mob Revan, even though Sadow and Kressh AREN'T part of his thread.

You claim I'm fanboyism by doing what? Posting sarcasm? Funny.

Oh you seriously got me there. Revan didn't blow up a star with sith magic so he can't be anywhere near the power of a guy who didn't even do it.

Did I say because he didn't blow up a star, he isn't as powerful?

No, I said he didn't do a feat AS POWERFUL AS blowing up a star.

None of his accomplishments are as powerful as Sadow's, and Sadow was underneath Ragnos, what does that show? You should figure it out.

Once more you claim I'm a fanboy because I guess you just are too stupid to debate with me and use support so you must call me a fanboy. Yet I post that Revan will lose if I think he will (happens more often than you think) but you said Ragnos would nod and Revan will kill himself. You're a far greater fanboy than I will ever be.

You post the same regurgitated shit.

Then you claim I call you a fanboy because I am "too stupid to debate" but then you call me a fanboy.

Wow, hypocrisy, awesome.

Once more you continually ignore everything I have posted so I'm not gonna bother responding to your next post. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT REVAN WILL BEAT RAGNOS UNLIKE YOU!!!!

That's what you call lack of logic huh? Yet even though Ragnos has only defeated one person we know of and never done anything impressive that might show his power you think he would nod and Revan would kill himself.

No, lack of logic is you saying "he's never done anything impressive".

That's what it is, you're just being silly.

Your blatant fanboyism, pretending I've said things when I haven't, constant insulting, and lack of support has bored me too much. I'm here to debate with someone who can do it. Not waste trash with you. So seriously don't even bother responding to this because I'm sick of your lies, fanboyism, and insults and I'm not going to even respond to whatever load of garbage you're gonna say next on this thread.

Hahahah.

You've spewed more fanboyism than I have.

YOUR KEY POINT OF THE ARGUMENT is using my SARCASM.

What does that show? LMFAO.

You claim I throw insults, yet you call me a "retard".

So all you've done is show you can argue an argument that NEVER EXISTED, and that you can be a great hypocrite. Good ****ing job.

Yeah, I'm done with this hypocritical moron.

Go chew on some death sticks and peddle your favorite character, fanboy.

DISCLAMER: The following post contain significant amounts of inference.

I'm not going to make a two page post like Emp here, but Ragnos did have Sadow and Kressh bowing to him. Sadow eventually taught Freedon Nadd. Nadd was able to conquer the strongest planet in the Galaxy after being taught by Sadow. He began training with Sadow after he was not allowed to become a Jedi. Freedon died eventually, but his spirit taught Exar. After some training and the help of some Sith Artifacts, Exar killed Freedons apprentice, the student of Sadow.

If you look at this it shows by just the facts, it shows that Exar was more powerful than Freedon Nadd.

If we expand on this a little, we discover that an unsubstantiated(did I spell that right?) theory has been going around stating that Frredon killed Sadow after he completed his training.

Again, if we examine this without by just what is stated, Freedon is more powerful than Sadow.

We have therefor concluded that Nadd is stronger than Sadow and Exar is stronger than Nadd.

Sadow<Nadd<Exar

This would make it probable that Exar and possibly Nadd achieved a greater strength than Ragnos.

Now lets include inference's to the discussion.

Because Sadow being killed by Nadd has never been confirmed, it cannot be called on as evidence. I actually made a theory in the EU section saying that Nihilus may actually be Sadow, thus completely dissipating the thought of Nadd killing him.

Nadd's spirit was killed by Exar, not Nadd himself. It is generally believed that spirits become weaker with time and that they don't have the strength of the corporeal form to begin with.

This cancels out the statement as fact, Sadow<Nadd<Exar

The still may be more powerful though.

Exar has be repeatedly described as more powerful than Revan or Malak.

Nadd has also been stated as much worse than Revan or Malak.

Ragnos was, as you know, feared by Sadow.

Sadow was the second most powerful Sith at the time.
Sadow led his army to many victories against the Republic.
Sadow destroyed a star with a wave of his hand.
Sadow learned from Simus, and expert Sith Alchemist.

We can also infer that if indeed Freedon defeated Sadow, it was not by much and that Sadow would not have feared him. At least not like he feared Ragnos.

Nadd conquered the strongest planet in the galaxy by himself.

Exar also can't stronger than Freedon by much and was not feared by Nadd.

Exar killed a lightsaber grandmaster, Vodo Bass.
Exar destroyed a star.
Exar led a war against the Republic and would have won if not for betrayals at the least minute.
Exar perserved himself for 4000 years.
Exar was chosen by Ragnos to lead the Sith. It is doubtful that he would have chosen him to be be the one to lead it if he had not felt Exar capable of defeating the Republic. Ragnos would have probably wated for someone more capable to lead the Sith against the Republic if he hadn't thought Exar could do it.

Kressh and Sadow were basically equal. Lets put them as 10 points each. This means Ragnos has at least 20 points because Sadow and Kressh didn't try to detrone him.

Assume worst case for Ragnos and this Sadow<Nadd<Exar applies.

With this as the case, Sadow is weaker than Nadd. He did not fear him though or else he would have stopped teaching him.

I personaly would be afraid of someone who is 25% or more bigger than me if I thought they were coming after me.

Sadow didn't fear Nadd, so Nadd isn't going to have more than 12.5 points(10* 1.25= 12.5. Still well below Ragnos. Enough to have Nadd fear him just like Sadow and Kressh.

The same thing applies for Exar and Nadd. Nadd didn't fear Exar or else he would have stopped teaching him. This means Exar can't beat more than 25% more powerful than Nadd.

12.5* 1.25= 15.625

Exar is also afraid of Ragnos.

If Exar is more powerful than Revan, Ragnos must be also, thus stating.

Ragnos>Exar>Nadd>Sadow and Ragnos>Revan

Your inferences are correct in the sense that they work from a theoretical standpoint.

I would agree that Ragnos was likely greater than Revan, from what we can gather.

We know that Simus as a head in a jar, Sadow, and Kressh did not make an attempt to dethrone him.

Also, we can't confirm Nadd killed Sadow, and if it was, it wasn't Sadow at full strength.

The same can be applied to Kun, Kun, while supposedly more powerful than Revan (at least more brute force) killed Nadd with the amulet.

So we can't assume Exar was more powerful than Nadd, as he vanquished his SPIRIT (presumably weaker than his person, with the help of the Sith Amulet).

You're also right, Exar never feared Nadd, Nadd never feared Sadow, but Sadow sure as hell feared Ragnos.

Theoretically, your logic is correct.

However, it's never that simply, to simplify warriors into arbitrary numbers is being silly, and not to mention there will always be at least one person that denies it until he's blue in the face.

Simus was detroned by Ragnos probably before Sadow was even born.

"Also, we can't confirm Nadd killed Sadow, and if it was, it wasn't Sadow at full strength.

The same can be applied to Kun, Kun, while supposedly more powerful than Revan (at least more brute force) killed Nadd with the amulet.

So we can't assume Exar was more powerful than Nadd, as he vanquished his SPIRIT (presumably weaker than his person, with the help of the Sith Amulet)."

I think a addressed that in my post and factored it in.

Simus had apparently taught Sadow a thing or two. So that either means Sadow learned from Mr. Head in a Jar, or Sadow was alive prior to Ragnos dethroning the Sith Magician.

Also, because Simus was the most powerful of his time, and Ragnos defeated him. We can gather this:

Ragnos > Simus > all others of Simus' time.

That like means Ragnos was one of, if not the most powerful, UP until his era.

And like you said, you've factored in the WORST CASE scenario for Ragnos, and he still comes out on top. Good job.

thanks

Yes, nice work.

Emperor Revan, Illustrous... I don't have a problem with either of you. But I do see a problem when you both war back and forth over at least two different threads over Revan. But... I have to call them as I see them. Emperor... I've argued with you on this very same points since you've come here, and I have to do so now. Revan is weaker thn Ragnos by far, and Ragnos IS the über Sith. All the evidence points to this. All the inferences point to this. Most everyone comes to this conclusion (bar those unenlightened few who refuse to believe just because they don't want to) except for you. Now I know it irritates you that we know so little about Ragnos... But you haven't yet proven a solid case against our opinion on Ragnos.

So... the bottom line is that Illustrous is right here.

Also, you are coming off to even me as a Revan fanboy. And I mean fanboy, not fan. I'm not saying that to be an ass, but it's what I'm seeing here. You need to broaden your horizons and let go a bit when it comes to Revan. I used to argue until I was blue in the face that Revan could take almost everyone under the sun, and you know what? I later realized how silly it was and as I found out more and more (from other people, from novels, and other EU sources) I came to realize that Revan, for all his coolness, is a small player in a large world. Not insignificant, but nowhere on the level of greatness of Ragnos, a Sith dictator for a century.

Anyways, take that for what you will. You two can go right on bickering and it won't change his views or yours, really.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Yes, nice work.

Emperor Revan, Illustrous... I don't have a problem with either of you. But I do see a problem when you both war back and forth over at least two different threads over Revan. But... I have to call them as I see them. Emperor... I've argued with you on this very same points since you've come here, and I have to do so now. Revan is weaker thn Ragnos by far, and Ragnos IS the über Sith. All the evidence points to this. All the inferences point to this. Most everyone comes to this conclusion (bar those unenlightened few who refuse to believe just because they don't want to) except for you. Now I know it irritates you that we know so little about Ragnos... But you haven't yet proven a solid case against our opinion on Ragnos.

So... the bottom line is that Illustrous is right here.

Also, you are coming off to even me as a Revan fanboy. And I mean fanboy, not fan. I'm not saying that to be an ass, but it's what I'm seeing here. You need to broaden your horizons and let go a bit when it comes to Revan. I used to argue until I was blue in the face that Revan could take almost everyone under the sun, and you know what? I later realized how silly it was and as I found out more and more (from other people, from novels, and other EU sources) I came to realize that Revan, for all his coolness, is a small player in a large world. Not insignificant, but nowhere on the level of greatness of Ragnos, a Sith dictator for a century.

Anyways, take that for what you will. You two can go right on bickering and it won't change his views or yours, really.

I'm not gonna waste my time talking to Illustrious. However, I did post two rather long posts of reasons why I don't think we can say Ragnos is better than Revan or even vice versa. Did you read the whole thing before posting? Anyway, you also haven't been here a while either. For a while there were frequent posts I was making where I thought Revan, or Revan's team would lose, even though Fishy often was saying Revan, or Revan's team would win. Ask him, if I don't think he'll win, I don't hesitate to post it. I still agree 100% with what Frobo said.

Being a dictator doesn't make you powerful, otherwise Sidious would be first and Revan would be second. And I'm not trying to be mean here, but I've rarely heard you defend Ragnos with some good reasons. Others have. You almost always think the person from the earlier time will win and saying they'll win with that much ease sounds really fanboyish to me. If I think Revan's opponent is close, like NJO Luke, then I'll also post that. Most everyone will even say that Revan would at the very least put up a good fight, not get slaughtered while Ragnos is eating a cupcake.

We're still cool though. 😎

Still cool.

But dude... Ragnos loves his cupcakes. And he would probably fek Revan up. But since you posted in the other thread, everything is pure speculation, neither you, I, or anyone can say with any certainty that he WOULD last more than a few seconds, just the same as we can't say with any degree of certainty that he would last hours.

What Revan are we talking bout?
Post Kotor, during Kotor, or at the end of Kotor?

Doesn't matter, really.

I mean we also haven't seen Revan at his best. We may in Kotor 3 but we haven't yet.

Like I said, doesn't really matter. You can't argue that Revan at hsi best could be better or worse than anyone since we have absolutely NO information regarding that. For all you know, he could hit his head, go back into amnesialand, and forget all his powers, to live out his life as some space bum.