Are there any villains you agree with?

Yeah, but he started bucking the rules before EU, right in EU. And he was trained far after his birth, but did resist the darkside at his pivotal moment.

Yes Dooku feel to the Dark side. but he was a Jedi. From birth, raised in the opressive system, and served the Republic for years. And he still fell. Proof that the system isn't infailable.

Agreed, the greater good should be served. That's why the Jedi had to die. Saved a lot of parents grief. At least untill their children were all killed anyway.

And even if you disregard Eu, it's safe to say Luke isn't about to go out and restart the old order. The "Perfect Good" is dead in the universe at the time when BALANCE IS RESTORED.

So, getting back on topic, I still think the Sith are closer to the force.

Dammit! I left before I got a chance to defend myself. Curse the luck.
Peace to everyone.

Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
Yeah, but he started bucking the rules before EU, right in EU. And he was trained far after his birth, but did resist the darkside at his pivotal moment.

Yes Dooku feel to the Dark side. but he was a Jedi. From birth, raised in the opressive system, and served the Republic for years. And he still fell. Proof that the system isn't infailable.

Agreed, the greater good should be served. That's why the Jedi had to die. Saved a lot of parents grief. At least untill their children were all killed anyway.

And even if you disregard Eu, it's safe to say Luke isn't about to go out and restart the old order. The "Perfect Good" is dead in the universe at the time when BALANCE IS RESTORED.

So, getting back on topic, I still think the Sith are closer to the force.

You're sure hung up on the child-napping, aren't you? Uh, let me give you an example of a child-napping.

"Ma'am, your child has potential to become a jedi knight. Since in this world, you all have barely two credits to rub together and have mud farms from sea to murky sea... Would you be willing to let your child become a champion of good and serve the Republic as a guardian, or remain here with you and possibly die?"

That's not every case, but damn near. Children who are taken to be jedi usually come from backgrounds where they may have died had they remained, or lived a life destitute and miserable. Hell of a choice, huh?

And now that you're talking about the Sith... well, in their day and age they either killed you, subjugated you, or both. They took choice away from everyone they came into contact with, and in the Sith empire there were castes from which one might never break away from... Hardly as oppressive as the Jedi selection method. Also, keep in mind that it is up to the select few to put aside their desires for the good of the many. Jedi serve because it is right and take pride in their position, not because it's something they simply 'want' to do.

And lastly, the Sith are not closer to the Force. They are NOT. Just because they use passion and emotion doesn't make them any more intune with the Force than the Jedi. if anything, the emotion drowns out the will of the Force. You see, the Jedi practice breathing techniques, meditation, and achieving a tranquil state so that they can perceive the will of the Force, to let it guide their actions instead of trying to outright control it. The Force seems to have a built-in mechanism that keeps it from being abused too much, which is why the Sith never have and never will defeat the Jedi entirely.

Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
Dammit! I left before I got a chance to defend myself. Curse the luck.
Peace to everyone.

I sense angst...

Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
[B]The Jedi dont' deny all their emotions, but that seems to be the ultimate goal. For example, not greiving the death of a close friend. That runs contrary to every natural impulse most any creature would have, sentient or nonsentient alike. It's not sucessful yet, but it seems to be what they are trying for. As you said, it's the journey that counts. And trying to be lifeless automatons is a damn stupid journey.

Your can't deny your emotions and this is not the goal of the Jedi. The goal is that you don't let your emotions control your actions. That seems to be hard in some cases even inhuman (sacrifice the life of a good friend when it's necessary).
But in fact that are two different things. If (for example) you have a good friend and somebody kills him, you will hate the person who did so and you will suffer because you lost your friend. That is natural and that is what a Jedi would do. But if you take a weapon and kill the person that killed your friend just because you hate him that is wrong - and that is what a Jedi won't do.

So there is a difference between "denying your emotions" and "acting only because of your emotions".

If the Jedi paused to think about their recuritment program, they'd realize that their supreme arrogance had reached a point rivaling the corrupt senate they served. Who gave them the goddamn right? Claiming to prevent future catastrophe is a damn stupid reason if you ask me. Pratical or not, they remove the child's choice from them. Anakin chooses to become a Jedi: did anybody else really have the option? It's a testament to the orders effectiveness that there weren't more betrayls. Why do you think it was so easy for palpatine to turn the public opinion against the jedi? the jedi numbered in thousands in a galaxy of billions. Most would never meet a Jedi. And hearing of a group that takes children from their parents at birth wouldn't aid their reputation any. For many, I'd be the Jedi were seen as an evil order and their destruction an act of good.

Now...that is quite stupid reasoning.
What can a child in an age of 2 or 3 years decide ? Nothing at all. Because you can manipulate children quite easily. So what do you think that the Jedi do ? Run into a house, say "oh...you child has a midichlorian count of XXXX so we take it with us. HAHA !" ?

They will ask the parents of course. Can the parents decide what is good for their child ? At least...yes. And still the child has the ability to decide later in life. Nobody can keep you in the order (see the lost twenty) if you don't want to be in it. So what ?

And the Jedi don't take children because they want to prevent future catastrophe. What can somebody who NEVER received training with force powers do ? Nothing. They won't become over powerful Sith Lords only because the Jedi don't train them. They might have some supernatural powers (reflexes, piloting skills and so on) but they won't become a threat for the galaxy when they aren't trained.

Besides, Luke turned out fine. Proof the "praticality" of the Jedi was utter conceit. And in Eu (valid because of the section of forums we are in) Luke proceeds to break pretty much every tenent of the former Jedi, having several girlfriends and eventually a wife, bearing children, and forming massive amounts of personal attachments, again turning out fine.

And again that is stupid reasoning. We know that several Jedi back in KotoR times and before that had children. The mother of the Quel-Droma brothers for example was a Jedi.
That rules you talk about were installed with the Ruusan reformation because the Jedi saw that all those things might lead either to the dark side or to a point where a Jedi can't do what must be done because of that. Would you sacrifice your wife or your children if it's necessary ? I don't think so.

If all Jedi are absolute good, explain Dooku.

Dooku was a Sith...

And even if you disregard Eu, it's safe to say Luke isn't about to go out and restart the old order. The "Perfect Good" is dead in the universe at the time when BALANCE IS RESTORED.

Incorrect- of course he will re-start the Order! That's the whole point. The Sith are destreoyed; Balance must be served by the Jedi again.

"Agreed, the greater good should be served. That's why the Jedi had to die. Saved a lot of parents grief. At least untill their children were all killed anyway."

That is NOT a greater good. Without proper training, those people are easy prey for the Dark Side. The greater good is to train them as Jedi.

"And the Jedi don't take children because they want to prevent future catastrophe. What can somebody who NEVER received training with force powers do ? Nothing. They won't become over powerful Sith Lords only because the Jedi don't train them. They might have some supernatural powers (reflexes, piloting skills and so on) but they won't become a threat for the galaxy when they aren't trained."

Not a powerful threat. but still a threat. Without guidance, even with only imperceptible powers, they will fall to the Dark Side and this is clearly dangerous!

And no system is faillible. The entire point of Dooku's character is to point out it IS possible to fall to the Dark Side. It is, however, incredibly rare.

I am sorry, but to fight GL's own point of view on this is ludicrous. Simple morality tale. Jedi good, Sith evil. Any point of view you have which appears to contradict this, is then nothing to do with the movies.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not a powerful threat. but still a threat. Without guidance, even with only imperceptible powers, they will fall to the Dark Side and this is clearly dangerous!

Not necessarily.
There are multiple people trained under Luke in the Jedi Academy that are quite old and still never fell to the dark side. That is based on the character. Not every being that is gifted with force powers will fall to the dark side when they aren't trained to be Jedi. There must be thousand of children born between ROTS and the JA times who had force potential and as we see they didn't all fall to the dark side.

And without training this is no danger since they can't use their powers. See...every dark side user / Sith we know as a threat in the SW universe was either trained from infancy on with dark side powers (Maul) or is a fallen Jedi (Dooku, Vader). That people received training and without training they have some supernatural abilities but nothing that is a "threat" really.

Yet GL describes that this is how the Jedi work- taking the Force sensitives and training them to control their emotions, lest they turn dark., Again, the EU is very possibly in error on this.

The Jedi simply will not do anything that is actively immoral (unless they have Fallen)- it's kinda a Star Wars rule. As they do that with the kids, it must be moral, and therefore necessary.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I sense angst...

Sorry for the delayed response, but it wasn't a really big deal. I just felt that my point was perhaps slightly misunderstood and I didn't really get a chance to back it up. Sorry if it seemed as though I was really upset. For example, I wasn't really trying to defend the Sith. I just thought that the way it worked was - well, I can sum it up in an apothem or something:

To be a Sith, one doesn't have to be evil, but to be evil you does have to be a Sith.

Anways, I'm sorry if I seemed to overreact. I was just annoyed at my own poor choice of timing to go offline.

Peace be with everyone.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yet GL describes that this is how the Jedi work- taking the Force sensitives and training them to control their emotions, lest they turn dark., Again, the EU is very possibly in error on this.

Yes. But still the Jedi never had the chance to take all Force sensitives and train them. They just did so within republic space but still there could be thousands or even millions of force sensitive beings around that were never trained and did not fall to the dark side.
To fall to the dark side you have to be VERY egoistic and to be a thread you have to train your force powers somehow. I don't think that any force sensitive can become a major thread just because not being educated by the Jedi.

The Jedi simply will not do anything that is actively immoral (unless they have Fallen)- it's kinda a Star Wars rule. As they do that with the kids, it must be moral, and therefore necessary.

Something that is "moral" is not "necessary". Of course it is better to take the children and train them to be Jedi than leave them on their own with the possibility that they become dark siders. Still we never saw that Jedi came somewhere and simply took children away because they might fall to the dark side if not being trained.

Otherwise Obi-Wan and Yoda would have trained Luke and Leia from infancy on just because this would have been "necessary".

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Firs off, Morridini... Evil is not merely a POV... A person's definition of evil does not change what it really is any more than ignoring a fire in a house keeps you out of danger. What you're saying is evil is completely subjective, and that's a horrible way to look at morality. If what you're saying is true, than torture, murder, betrayal, cannibalism, hatred, etc. are all morally justifiable and right, with the only conditions being on POV.

Dipsit, the Sith ARE evil. The very teachings of the Sith center around hatred of the Jedi and the need to dominate the very galaxy. Don't try and tell me the Sith are misguided or true to themselves. If being true to an inner beast is being true, so would shitting everywhere, humping the legs of anything attractive... etc. The Jedi revel in their advanced state and distance themselves from such beastly urges and desires. A Sith claims that they are free, and that they are true to themselves. And this is the greatest lie of all, since they are slaves to their inner beasts and they have NO future.

Shut up and look at human history. The Norse thought that if they died in battle they'd go to heaven, Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favor, the Crusaders massacred the Muslims in the Holy Lands in the name of God, need I say more?

Originally posted by Darth Koroni
Shut up and look at human history. The Norse thought that if they died in battle they'd go to heaven, Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favor, the Crusaders massacred the Muslims in the Holy Lands in the name of God, need I say more?

Shut up? What are you talking about. All of those examples you gave are POV's and support DJ

Originally posted by Darth Koroni
Shut up and look at human history. The Norse thought that if they died in battle they'd go to heaven, Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favor, the Crusaders massacred the Muslims in the Holy Lands in the name of God, need I say more?

You should better read before you reply...

I apologize if I didn't get my point across, what I was trying to say was that Good and Evil are terms only used by people who can only see the world in black and white.

Nute Gunray. Become powerful and make money. He's like a galactic Bill Gates, lol.

Originally posted by Darth Koroni
I apologize if I didn't get my point across, what I was trying to say was that Good and Evil are terms only used by people who can only see the world in black and white.

I suggest you drink a big cup o' this and post back with some actual arguments...

Originally posted by Darth_Janus

That's not every case, but damn near. Children who are taken to be jedi usually come from backgrounds where they may have died had they remained, or lived a life destitute and miserable. Hell of a choice, huh?

The Force seems to have a built-in mechanism that keeps it from being abused too much, which is why the Sith never have and never will defeat the Jedi entirely.

First off, i wonder where you get the basis to say that nearly every jedi was taken from such a place. Secondly, even if your argument is corrent, it still carries a big flaw: What about the children? Sure, they are technically given the choice, but what else would they do? They are trained into it their whole damn lives. Knowing little else, of course they will opt to volunteer for the service when they are able to. The Fett clones all opted to be in the army, but for much the same reasons.

The mechanism's you decribe are also why the sith will never truly die. Oh sure, the offical line has been broken, but you know somebody will restart it.

The Jedi simply will not do anything that is actively immoral (unless they have Fallen)- it's kinda a Star Wars rule. As they do that with the kids, it must be moral, and therefore necessary

Dude, you use the GL argument way too much. It's one thing to use it to argue specific points, but your using it on some large generizations now. Did the fact the Jedi were essentially a State-sanctioned religion make that moral?

Not a powerful threat. but still a threat. Without guidance, even with only imperceptible powers, they will fall to the Dark Side and this is clearly dangerous

And Leia, the passionate leader of the Rebellion, used her force powers to... Hmmm... I forgot, THEY NEVER MANIFESTED. Vader was close to her for hours, torturing her, and didn't even feel her prescense! And she was chalk full of anger too. Nobody even bothered watching her either.

Incorrect- of course he will re-start the Order! That's the whole point. The Sith are destreoyed; Balance must be served by the Jedi again.

You seem awfully sure. Well, he's got quite a task in front of him, since most of the universe believes the Jedi were rightfully destroyed and Luke really has no idea how the old sytem worked at all.

You claim luke as a "grey" Jedi, and that it is dangerous. I say again, he did allright. The grey Jedi as you put them are likely the ones closest to the force, beating out Jedi and the Sith.

Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
First off, i wonder where you get the basis to say that nearly every jedi was taken from such a place. Secondly, even if your argument is corrent, it still carries a big flaw: What about the children? Sure, they are technically given the choice, but what else would they do? They are trained into it their whole damn lives. Knowing little else, of course they will opt to volunteer for the service when they are able to. The Fett clones all opted to be in the army, but for much the same reasons.

Damn it. First not all Jedi were taken from some planets where they dwelled in suffering, pain, hunger or whatever. Imagine it like that: Jedi coming telling you that your child has the chance to be a Jedi Knight a very powerful warrior, a hero - or he can server Burgers at the next fast food restaurant for his entire life. What would be your choice ?
Next. Knowing little else and being trained for the entirety of their lives doesn't mean they have no choice anymore. Dooku had that choice - the other 19 individuals of the lost 20 had that choice. Every person has that choice. And well...Jedi did know more than the Jedi temple. This is not a catholic monestary.

The mechanism's you decribe are also why the sith will never truly die. Oh sure, the offical line has been broken, but you know somebody will restart it.

Did you ever see somebody in the entire EU "restarting" the Sith ? They need knowledge to do so. Knowledge that can't simply be found lying around somewhere.

You seem awfully sure. Well, he's got quite a task in front of him, since most of the universe believes the Jedi were rightfully destroyed and Luke really has no idea how the old sytem worked at all.

You realy believe that somebody will think the Jedi were rightfully destroyed because Palpatine - having reigned the galaxy for over 20 years - will tell them so. Would you thrust Hitler when he tells you he did something because it was "right" ?

You claim luke as a "grey" Jedi, and that it is dangerous. I say again, he did allright. The grey Jedi as you put them are likely the ones closest to the force, beating out Jedi and the Sith.

Something as a "grey Jedi" does not exist. You have Jedi, you have Dark Jedi, you have Sith. Nothing more. No grey, yellow, blue, red, purple or pink Jedi with green hairs.

"First off, i wonder where you get the basis to say that nearly every jedi was taken from such a place. Secondly, even if your argument is corrent, it still carries a big flaw: What about the children? Sure, they are technically given the choice, but what else would they do? They are trained into it their whole damn lives. Knowing little else, of course they will opt to volunteer for the service when they are able to. The Fett clones all opted to be in the army, but for much the same reasons.

The mechanism's you decribe are also why the sith will never truly die. Oh sure, the offical line has been broken, but you know somebody will restart it. "

I think what you need to consider is this:

"Star Wars and Philosophy, edited by Kevin S. Decker and Jason T. Eberl." It's part of the Popular Culture and Philosophy series books, and I highly recommend it. I could spend all week going back and forth with you here, but if you were to find and read this book it would clear things up tremendously. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my time.

I thought we agreed not to use non-canonical sources?

You realy believe that somebody will think the Jedi were rightfully destroyed because Palpatine - having reigned the galaxy for over 20 years - will tell them so. Would you thrust Hitler when he tells you he did something because it was "right" ?

In case you didn't notice, Palpatine was a very charasmatic and beloved individual. That's why it was called a rebellion and not a revolution. Lots of people liked the Empire. It was beginning to decline because of it's tactics, but Palpatine was hardly reviled. Remember, we saw him "behind the scenes" plotting his evil deeds. In front of the holo's, he was just a really loveable hugable ugly guy.

And people loved hitler. During his reign, many people truly believed the Jews were a problem that had to be delt with. There are people who know the whole truth now and still love hitler and belive he was right, or that he at least had "The right idea taken too far"