Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, now, even if Dooku could have defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin (which he could have) it would have been excessively difficult. You seem to underestimate the two of them dramatically. They're arguably the greatest team that the Clone Wars, or the movie era for that matter, ever saw.And if you go by the novel, then so will I. In the book, the two Jedi, once fighting with their all, nearly overwhelm Dooku, until he lets out a furious kick that separates them, and knocks Kenobi unconcious. Following, he duels and gains an advatage on Anakin, but loses because of his own arrogance. By telling Anakin to "use his anger," he lets out the full force of ROTS Anakin. He becomes overwhelmed by the furious power and strength of the youth.
Anyways, the way I see it is that, although he is a superior swordsman, he could not stand up to the furious rage of Skywalker. His Makashi style was for finesse and precision, not staving off physical blows.
They are not underestimated. Their Lightsaber skills and Force powers compared to Dooku are moot. Dooku has YEARS of Experience on his hands. He could have raped them both. Same on AOTC. If Yoda didn't show up, what the hell do you think would have happened to Anakin and Obi Wan? Can anyone say "Owned"?
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Anyways, the way I see it is that, although he is a superior swordsman, he could not stand up to the furious rage of Skywalker. His Makashi style was for finesse and precision, not staving off physical blows.
And now please tell me how Dooku could defeat Anakin in AotC or tell me how Obi-Wan managed to defeat Anakin in the end of ROTS.
The ROTS novel is a goddamn altar of Sidious / Anakin fanboyism.
Anakin could not take Dooku on his own if Dooku gives his best. As we've seen two times how easy Dooku can deal with Obi-Wan he is obviously able to kill them both at once and yes - easily.
If you want to go by the novel ROTS Obi-Wan would be able to kill anybody because he can parry / avoid more than 20 lightsaber attacks per second (vs Grievous) and he can destroy 10,000 droids that are in a single hall.
Originally posted by joeyvermont
ok anakin was the chosen one, i agree. But only the jedi masters on the council knew and not even anakin knew himself (its not like the jedi would tell him they would think it would go to his head), it was not common knowledge. Plaegius did create him but he still did not know he was the chosen one, he probably created him because he thought he could be the greatest dark jedi ever due to his count of midchlorians. And the sathiri doesnt exist but is a haox by www.supershadow.com.
Nice theory...
a)
Anakin knew at least that he was the chosen one or something special. Especially in ROTS you can see that. First he tells the Masters that he is more powerful than every of them, later Obi-Wan even calls him the Chosen One. So he did know. And since he told Sidious everything, Sidious also knows it.
b)
Stop that Plagueis stuff. It is not confirmed that Plagueis created him. I'd even say this theory is total BS because of 2 points:
1)
We know that Sidious is Senator for quite a long time during the events in TPM. That means he must have killed his master before joining the Senate (and that is far before Anakins birth).
2)
If Plagueis created Anakin than he would have known that this creation would have become the most powerful force user ever. So why should Plagueis in this situation:
- train Sidious (if he could have had the most powerful apprentice ever)
- let Anakin on Tatooine instead of training him
Same things count for Sidious himself. Why should he have trained Maul if he knew about Anakin before the events in TPM ? A waste of time.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Nice theory...a)
Anakin knew at least that he was the chosen one or something special. Especially in ROTS you can see that. First he tells the Masters that he is more powerful than every of them, later Obi-Wan even calls him the Chosen One. So he did know. And since he told Sidious everything, Sidious also knows it.b)
Stop that Plagueis stuff. It is not confirmed that Plagueis created him. I'd even say this theory is total BS because of 2 points:1)
joining the Senate (and that is far before Anakins birth).
We know that Sidious is Senator for quite a long time during the events in TPM. That means he must have killed his master [b]before2)
If Plagueis created Anakin than he would have known that this creation would have become the most powerful force user ever. So why should Plagueis in this situation:
- train Sidious (if he could have had the most powerful apprentice ever)
- let Anakin on Tatooine instead of training himSame things count for Sidious himself. Why should he have trained Maul if he knew about Anakin before the events in TPM ? A waste of time. [/B]
On the point of at least Sidious creating Anakin, I disagree.
It is possible that Anakin was left on Tattooine with his birth mother for a time because there was no way Sidious as a senator could train the boy and maintain his hold over Maul. Now, Maul is much older than Anakin was, and Sidious probably began training him right after Plageus was killed. Maul was trained for obediance and for purpose, whereas Sidious fueled Anakin's individuality and hatred and emotion. They were trained for quite different purposes, really. I think Sidious sees within Anakin (Who is, for the sake of argument, his creation) the same thing as he sees in his empire- his best achievement and creation. I mean, if Sidious was only interested in Anakin because of his potential and NOT because he had some twisted fatherly relation to him, the question remains why did Sidious save Vader on Mustafar?
He could have easily trained another. But he didn't. And Sidious even says to Yoda in almost fatherly glee "Darth Vader shall become more powerful than you or I!" It is as if he is living his ultimate triumph through Vader himself, as parents tend to live their old fantasies through their children in little league.
1)tyranus wrecks obi with ease, he's done so twice including against obi in his prime.
2)Dooku wasn't trying to kill anakin he was trying to turn him so he could usurp sidious's place, he didn't use makashi against anakin and repeatedly refrained from killing/maiming him when he had the chance but he was able to easily kill obi who was in fact more powerful then anakin as shown by them having the same saber moves and their force push having the same power behind it.
Ultimatley dooku's swordsmanship pwns obi's with ease and his offensive arsenal of force techniques/greater power owns him. he could also have mopped the floor with anakin as anakins equally weak but also stupid.
As for sidious creating anakin, I personally beleive it and I'll try to explain to you certain things about it.
1)Sidious couldn't train anakin himself for a couple of reasons
-If he did anyone remotley force sensitive would feel anakins presence right away and investigate what was going on.
-He needed maul to carry out important assasinations for him, anakin was 9 he wasn't exactly badass assasin material.
-He would have to travel to tatooine a lot and that would raise suspicion.
-He had to wait until the clones were ready training anakin before then would present a huge risk and ruin any suprise that was gained by anakins turning.
-By training anakin from infancy he would quickly become powerful enough to usurp the position of dark lord from sidious.
-He wouldn't gain the emotional attachments necessary in order to insure his fall.
-he wouldn't have someone inside the jedi to get him information.
-he wouldn't be able to have someone that could create the CIS and rally systems to his cause.
I have more reasons but the point is training anakin from birth is not a wise descision.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
It is possible that Anakin was left on Tattooine with his birth mother for a time because there was no way Sidious as a senator could train the boy and maintain his hold over Maul.
Possible. But why he should have trained Maul any further when Anakin was in the age to start his training ? From what we know Jedi were trained from a very young age on - so why leaving your future apprentice on a planet like Tatooine for 9 years and - mention it - as a slave that could be sold or killed anytime ? That would be quite stupid.
Now, Maul is much older than Anakin was, and Sidious probably began training him right after Plageus was killed. Maul was trained for obediance and for purpose, whereas Sidious fueled Anakin's individuality and hatred and emotion. They were trained for quite different purposes, really. I think Sidious sees within Anakin (Who is, for the sake of argument, his creation) the same thing as he sees in his empire- his best achievement and creation. I mean, if Sidious was only interested in Anakin because of his potential and NOT because he had some twisted fatherly relation to him, the question remains why did Sidious save Vader on Mustafar?
Of course Maul and Anakin were quite different. But Sidious seeing Anakin as a son ? No. When you have a look at it Anakin was a tool for Sidious plans, nothing more and there is a logical explanation for saving Vaders life on Mustafar.
Vader lost 60 % of his potential but he still has more potential than anyone else. The Solo children (who might be 25-50 % of Vaders original potential) are still the most powerful force users running around except Luke. See...in the end of ROTS you can see Vader destroying the entire room without even focusing on his force powers.
He could have easily trained another. But he didn't. And Sidious even says to Yoda in almost fatherly glee "Darth Vader shall become more powerful than you or I!" It is as if he is living his ultimate triumph through Vader himself, as parents tend to live their old fantasies through their children in little league.
He could have trained another. But:
a) He had a close relation to Anakin already that has grown for 13 years - why throw that away and start with a new apprentice that would have had (probably) less potential ?
b) Sidious was running out of time pretty much. Who should he have trained ? He killed all the Jedi and younglings so if Vader would have died Sidious would have needed to:
- find somebody worth becoming his apprentice
- train his apprentice for decades
The result would have been a Sith Lord with similar age compared to Luke in the OT - so you can also say that this was dramatic necessity.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, Nai, back to your post referring to me; I only referenced from the novel because you did. You can't take one piece of information from the novel, (the plot) say it's true, and disregard all the other points.
Well...
It can be seen that Dooku is obviously suprised / shocked when Sidious tells Anakin to kill him. That can be seen in the film. It's obvious that Dooku switched style and had not many problems to put Obi-Wan out of the fight. That can be also seen in the film. And where does the film show / tell that he had massive problems with the duo and / or Anakin on his own ?
You assumed that Dooku had problems with Anakins style because that is what the novel tells - and it's stupid. A fighter that relies on precission againt pure strength and is a master of his art would have no problems to parry hits from another swordfighter that relies on sheer strength. That's completely stupid and this is exactly what the novel tells you. And fact is that this can't be seen - neither in AotC nor in ROTS and I don't believe that Anakin god much stronger (in terms of physical strenght) between AotC and ROTS.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
And Glentract, I put forth the idea that either PLagueus or his work created Anakin, since it's clearly hinted at in the movie and it makes perfect sense.
I'll have to disagree with your putting forth the idea that Plageus or his work created Anakin.
In Ep.1, Qui Gon clearly states that was created by the will of the force..
2ndly, Plageus was a Sith..Why would he create the "chosen one who is said to destroy the Sith"
And 3rd of all, where in Palpatine's statement does it hint that Plageus created Anakin...?