Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
^No he wouldn't have, he still would have lost 10/10 to Genis-Vell. Sane or Insane. Genis-Vell would stomp Silver Surfer even if he was sane. Hell he would stomp Galactus.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You weren't actually taking me seriously were you?Lulz.
Sorry man, it's late and I'm bored. It wasn't really funny but I had to get my kicks somehow lol.
uhuh You had it right the first time, Rage.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Heh, but seriously, CM vs. SS would be a good fight. Hurling energy blasts at Genis isn't going to work. SS would need to be creative to win.
WHy wont energy blasts work? I know that CM can absorb energy and all but it isnt infinite absorption (i daresay SS does it on a higher level).
Originally posted by Naija boy
^ Proof?
Besides that, the Nega Bands have absorbed 5 solar system's worth of power easily, and even as Legacy he had the power to absorb a Nega Bomb that would've destroyed 10 trillion miles (1.7 lightyears?) of space and time.
Genis has no issue handling energy attacks.....also, photonic shielding. Or going Wonder Woman style and deflecting attacks with the Nega Bands, like he did against Merlin.
Originally posted by EnyalusBesides that, the Nega Bands have absorbed 5 solar system's worth of power easily, and even as Legacy he had the power to absorb a Nega Bomb that would've destroyed 10 trillion miles (1.7 lightyears?) of space and time.
Genis has no issue handling energy attacks.....also, photonic shielding. Or going Wonder Woman style and deflecting attacks with the Nega Bands, like he did against Merlin.
THe negative zone which the nega bands tap is described as "infinite space and infinite energy". Thats not really the same as genis being able to wield or absorb infinite energy. Heck dring Captain marvel vol 3 i remeber genis actually mentioning that he was running out of power. (i think it was issue 10).
Id like to see the 5 solar sytem absorbing scan though if u have it. IIRC during captain marvel vol 3 genis was regularly affected by energy attacks and even in his previous encounters with surfer, surfers blasts have been able to affect him. His photonic shielding wont be strong enough to protect him for long.
Though to make this fight easier, surfer could simply transmute him as he has in the past.
Originally posted by Naija boy
THe negative zone which the nega bands tap is described as "infinite space and infinite energy". Thats not really the same as genis being able to wield or absorb infinite energy. Heck dring Captain marvel vol 3 i remeber genis actually mentioning that he was running out of power. (i think it was issue 10).
What you're referring to, running out of power, etc. Its not relevant. Previously, Genis believed the Nega Bands became charged by drawing on stellar energy. And felt like he could run low on it. Later in v3, his alternate future clone, Fredd, showed him that that wasn't true at all. It was psychological. The Nega Bands were only the key...the power was in himself. He never should run low on energy, and later on in Volume 3, he doesn't.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Id like to see the 5 solar sytem absorbing scan though if u have it. IIRC during captain marvel vol 3 genis was regularly affected by energy attacks and even in his previous encounters with surfer, surfers blasts have been able to affect him. His photonic shielding wont be strong enough to protect him for long.
Hey, it's me. It's Genis. Of course I have it.
Furthermore, no, his photonic shielding won't be broken. It has only ever been broken by physical force, not energy attacks. You don't throw energy blasts at an energy shield. Not that those blasts would kill Genis, anyway, even if they did get through (they wouldn't.)
Originally posted by Naija boy
Though to make this fight easier, surfer could simply transmute him as he has in the past.
Besides, that would qualify as 'exotic', which I said he'd need to do in order to beat Genis. It won't happen just by tossing energy beams around. Then again, Genis can play exotic too. Here's a pretty cool fight against Merlin (top tier + magic user)...shows off a lot of skill and abilities in just a single fight:
Originally posted by EnyalusYou missed the point of the scan. In addition to showing that Genis is keyed into a source of infinite energy, the main point was that he gave the Nega Bands to another super villain, and he couldn't handle that power. Genis can. He's shown he can deal with infinite energy.
[/B]
Surfer is keyed to a source of "infinite" energy as well as the "most powerful energy source in the universe" etc. Others have shown to be unable to control the full power of his power cosmic as well. However that doesnt somehow mean he can absorb an infinite amount of energy or anything similar.
What you're referring to, running out of power, etc. Its not relevant. Previously, Genis believed the Nega Bands became charged by drawing on stellar energy. And felt like he could run low on it. Later in v3, his alternate future clone, Fredd, showed him that that wasn't true at all. It was psychological. The Nega Bands were only the key...the power was in himself. He never should run low on energy, and later on in Volume 3, he doesn't.
Actually id say it is pretty relevant. Genis future clone fredd explained to him that he really shouldnt ever run low on energy and that the only reason he did was because of his low level of control of his powers. FOr genis to get to that level however, he would have to "get in touch with his cosmic side" (which in essence is referring to more mastery of his CA). Genis DID NOT reach this level at any point in vol 3. Hence it is faulty to assume that he could no longer run out of power just because his future alternate clone told him about his full potential. Infact even towards the end of vol 3, Genis powers are still shown to be dependant on starlight when he fights the Magus deep underground. Magus then mentions that Genis draws his powers from the stars and that the stars dont shine very brightly down there and that he should be careful how he uses his energy. Genis not running low on energy in the rest of vol 3 (though i will have to confirm this) is certainly not as a result of him suddenly achieving his true potential but is much more likely attributed to simple judicious use of his then limited energy.
Hey, it's me. It's Genis. Of course I have it.Furthermore, no, his photonic shielding won't be broken. It has only ever been broken by physical force, not energy attacks. You don't throw energy blasts at an energy shield. Not that those blasts would kill Genis, anyway, even if they did get through (they wouldn't.)
Sorry but isnt that scan one of Genis' evil future son? (happened in vol 4 i think). The Genis being used in this thread (pre insane genis) certainly did not have as much mastery of the negabands as that guy had.
THe second part is a no limits fallacy. Genis shield may have not been broken by energy attacks (again ill have to confirm this), but it is far more likely that it was due to the blasts simply not being strong enough than some special unstated resistance it had against them. You dont throw energy blasts against an energy shield? why not? Unless the shield is said to absorb the energy then there is really no reason energy blasts of sufficient power wont break the shield down. Most forcefields are made out of energy. Nad yet there are numerous examples of forcefields getting destroyed by energy blasts and attacks.
Also if the blasts did get through(and they will), then genis would be in considerable trouble. He was constantly affected by attacks alot less
powerful.
That was Legacy. And Legacy's also brought Surfer back to life...would you like me to post those scans?
Besides, that would qualify as 'exotic', which I said he'd need to do in order to beat Genis. It won't happen just by tossing energy beams around. Then again, Genis can play exotic too. Here's a pretty cool fight against Merlin (top tier + magic user)...shows off a lot of skill and abilities in just a single fight:
DId genis ever show any improved resistance to such attacks as captain marvel? I really dont think so. Also im not sure what that fight against merlion is supposed to indicate. He really didnt do anything that "exotic" aside create light holograms of himself which is hardly going to be useful against surfer. Also feel free to post the scans of genis reviving surfer. Im actually trying to remeber the issue but still am quite confident that it would have little relevance in this matchup.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer is keyed to a source of "infinite" energy as well as the "most powerful energy source in the universe" etc. Others have shown to be unable to control the full power of his power cosmic as well. However that doesnt somehow mean he can absorb an infinite amount of energy or anything similar.
He can absorb more energy than Surfer can pump out, by a lot. In the form of a 1.7 lightyear wide Nega Bomb blast capable of distorting spacetime.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually id say it is pretty relevant. Genis future clone fredd explained to him that he really shouldnt ever run low on energy and that the only reason he did was because of his low level of control of his powers. FOr genis to get to that level however, he would have to "get in touch with his cosmic side" (which in essence is referring to more mastery of his CA). Genis DID NOT reach this level at any point in vol 3. Hence it is faulty to assume that he could no longer run out of power just because his future alternate clone told him about his full potential. Infact even towards the end of vol 3, Genis powers are still shown to be dependant on starlight when he fights the Magus deep underground. Magus then mentions that Genis draws his powers from the stars and that the stars dont shine very brightly down there and that he should be careful how he uses his energy.
At the end of vol 3, Genis...who is still Captain Marvel, does not have that limitation to his power.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Sorry but isnt that scan one of Genis' evil future son? (happened in vol 4 i think). The Genis being used in this thread (pre insane genis) certainly did not have as much mastery of the negabands as that guy had.
Genis can absorb energy (as shown from that scan with his son), or he can open apertures in space and shunt the energy into the Negative Zone. And he can deal with a limitless amount of energy that way...because the Negative Zone is limitless.
Originally posted by Naija boy
THe second part is a no limits fallacy. Genis shield may have not been broken by energy attacks (again ill have to confirm this), but it is far more likely that it was due to the blasts simply not being strong enough than some special unstated resistance it had against them. You dont throw energy blasts against an energy shield? why not? Unless the shield is said to absorb the energy then there is really no reason energy blasts of sufficient power wont break the shield down. Most forcefields are made out of energy. Nad yet there are numerous examples of forcefields getting destroyed by energy blasts and attacks.
The scan Shokosugi put up, as you see, is King Thor breaking them...with physical force. They won't be breached by energy.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Also if the blasts did get through(and they will), then genis would be in considerable trouble. He was constantly affected by attacks alot less powerful.
"The particular Captain Marvel I'm thinking about is the Genis-Vell version right before he went crazy insane"
Every time he got hit, it was either because of his inexperience, because he let himself get hit, or because of PIS. Technically, he should never be hit. He can go intangible, he can control all forms of energy, he has shielding, he can open spacial apertures to shunt attacks away from him, he can teleport, he can even fold space and create rotating apertures in it to lock someone in a stasis-like field. I have scans of each of these feats, if you need the proof.
Clearly though, I'm not going to convince you that Genis wins. 😛
I will say that it should be obvious that it will be a great battle and that, once again, Surfer cannot win this with simple blasts and flying around really fast. If he does, he gets owned.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Also feel free to post the scans of genis reviving surfer. Im actually trying to remeber the issue but still am quite confident that it would have little relevance in this matchup.
Originally posted by EnyalusIrrelevant. Surfer's been completely drained before. That doesn't happen if you're channeling infinite energy.
He can absorb more energy than Surfer can pump out, by a lot. In the form of a 1.7 lightyear wide Nega Bomb blast capable of distorting spacetime.
ITs not irrelevant since its an analogous situation to genis'. Genis was runnning out of power in captain marvel vol 3 and that doesnt happen if ur channeling infinite power. EVen after his conversation with fredd his alternate future self, he didnt gain mastery over his cosmic awareness which was what would have helped him overcome that limitation.
DO u have the scan of the nega bomb feat? I remeber it but only vaguely and id like to see if there was any added context within it. (Not that i dont trust u 😛) . EVen then, i dont deny that genis can absorb energy at a high level howeevr its extremely unlikely that he will absorb every single energy blast thrown at him considering surfers speed advantage and tnhe fact that genis has constantly been hit and affected by energy blasts throughout his history. (even in his fights against surfer)
Because Magus says it it's gospel? Genis clearly proved Magus wrong, when he overloaded Magus by either drawing power from the heart of the 616 universe or the HOTU artifact (take your pick, I don't really care.)At the end of vol 3, Genis...who is still Captain Marvel, does not have that limitation to his power.
NO the magus word alone doesnt stand as solid proof. But his reference to the nature of genis powers coming from starlight combined with the fact that genis never achieved the a mastery over his CA in vol 3 (which is what would have removed that limitation from him) DOES stand as solid evidence indicating the continued presence of that limitation. Also genis didnt prove magus wrong at all. Magus tried to absorb genis soul but because of his CA, his soul was keyed in to the living heart of the 616 universe. Hence it had nothing to do with genis suddenly overcoming his limitation but rather was entirely due to the link he had with the universe via his CA ( which at the time he still couldnt handle himself).
At the end of vol 3, he still DOES have that limitation. Infact at the beginning of vol 4 jst before he went insane(1st issue). Rick jones STILL describes marvels power as coming from starlight.
If you'll remember, I said that the Nega Bands proved capble of absorbing five solar systems worth of energy. Not Genis.
I know, but since it IS genis that is in this matchup that scan showing his son isnt applicable
Genis can absorb energy (as shown from that scan with his son), or he can open apertures in space and shunt the energy into the Negative Zone. And he can deal with a limitless amount of energy that way...because the Negative Zone is limitless.
I dont doubt that he can absorb energy. What i calling into question is the notion that he can absorb evry single energy attack thrwon his way by a considerably faster opponent especially when he hasnt been shown to absorb energy that rapidly during fights. A similar example is thor who has a huge energy absorption capacity. Even with such a high capacity for enrgy absorption, he still gets hit by energy attacks during fights. Obviously he absorbs alot of them but not to a level whereby fighting him with energy blasts becomes a useless method of offense. The same goes for other energy absorbers like surfer and Quasar.
The same logic applies for the apertures in space thing. However did pre insane captain marvel even have that ability? I cant remember him using it very much if at all.
Genis tanked the combined Kree, Shi'ar, and Skrull starfleets' full weapon blasts capable of leveling planets on his shields, to no affect. The reason that energy attacks are ineffective against his shields is because they're a photonic shield. Pure photonic energy. And all energy consists of photons...which, along with all other forms of energy, are Genis' to manipulate at will.The scan Shokosugi put up, as you see, is King Thor breaking them...with physical force. They won't be breached by energy.
WAsnt that insane genis shields that tanked all those attacks? HE was clearly in another range of power than the genis being referred to here. I know that all energy consists of photons and what not and while ur explanation is quite plausible i cant accept it just like that without any on pane confirmation.
Most of what you're citing is from early in vol 3 or Legacy era. Per the OP:
"The particular Captain Marvel I'm thinking about is the Genis-Vell version right before he went crazy insane"
Every time he got hit, it was either because of his inexperience, because he let himself get hit, or because of PIS. Technically, he should never be hit. He can go intangible, he can control all forms of energy, he has shielding, he can open spacial apertures to shunt attacks away from him, he can teleport, he can even fold space and create rotating apertures in it to lock someone in a stasis-like field. I have scans of each of these feats, if you need the proof.
Clearly though, I'm not going to convince you that Genis wins.
I will say that it should be obvious that it will be a great battle and that, once again, Surfer cannot win this with simple blasts and flying around really fast. If he does, he gets owned.
Not really. I even referenced vol 4 in in one of my arguments. See my above explanation for Thor in regards to genis getting hit by energy blasts. If we use the same logic u are using, neither he,surfer,quasar or any other high level absorbers should get hit. We cant just label it as PIS since it happens on a contsnat basis.
Solely using blasts would make it tougher for surfer to win of course but it certainly is not out of the question. GOing by ur logic, conversely Captain marvel wont be able to win by throwing simple blasts either(which is really his main force of offense) since surfer also control nearlya ll forms pof energy can absorb it, and do practically all the things genis cant.
