There is a difference between a man calling himself God and God becoming man. As for the Trinity, they are not seperate in the sense of Zeus is seperate from Hera, etc., but seperate as in perform different functions. It is like you mouth, your eye and your hand. Each is you, but your eyes cannot chew and your hands cannot see. It is the same with God. Each part of the Triune God has a purpose, but they are all the same.
The Right and the Original Jesus Christ
Part 1 of 2
No man has ever lived in this world and touched the lives of so great a number of people than our Lord Jesus Christ. His life has always been a great source of inspiration and hope to humanity. Countless people have placed their faith in Him and are looking forward to His second coming when he will reward His servants with eternal bliss in His Father’s heavenly abode.
But our recognition of Him ought to be in accordance with what the Bible prescribes. Anything beyond this would go against the expressed will of God.
In his second epistle to the Christians in Corinth, Apostle Paul forewarned the coming of false teachers “who would preach another Jesus,” a Jesus whom the apostles did not preach. The Jesus whom the apostles preached is certainly no ordinary human being, since He committed no sin and was vested with many powers and divine attributes, but this same Jesus is still a human being nevertheless. Jesus Himself never claimed that He is God. His apostles called Him the Son of God, the Head of the Church, the Lord and Savior, the Mediator between God and men, but they did not fail to teach that He is a man. For that is truly what He is, as He Himself attested: “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God;” (John 8:40, NKJV)
What was the belief of early Christians regarding our Lord Jesus Christ? Let’s try to see the comments made by some biblical scholars.
George Eldon Ladd, a Protestant scholar, The Young Church:
“…The early Christian concept of Jesus was that of a man who was mightily endowed by the Spirit of God.
“…We read the Gospels and the book of Acts in the light of our understanding of the pre-existence and the incarnation of God the Son. However, the early Christians had no such concepts in their minds. They had no doctrine of deity of Christ.” (p. 48)
“…The apostles and early Christians did not experience Jesus as a God in human disguise or as God pretending to be human (this is one reason that the early Church rejected fanciful and wildly imaginative accounts of Jesus’ life). They experienced him as a human. He was so real in his life, so genuinely human in his spirit, and so convincing in his words that they believed in him. They felt that whatever human life really was, Jesus as a person expressed that life.” (p. 29)
“…As one Church historian, Bernhard Lohse, writes in Motive im Glauben (Motivation in Belief): ‘Arius reminds us that Jesus, as he described in the Gospels, was not a God who walked this earth, but truly a human being. Of course, by his very humanity Jesus proved his full community with God.” (The Jesus Establishment, Lehmann, Johannes, p. 175)George M. Lamsa, New Testament Commentary:
“Jesus was not called God in those early days” (p. 149)John A.T. Robinson, an Anglican Church official, Honest to God:
Thomas Sheehan, The First Coming: How The Kingdom of God Became Christianity:
“The crisis grows out of a fact now freely admitted by both Protestant and Catholic theologians and exegetes: that as far as can be discerned from the available historical data, Jesus of Nazareth did not think he was divine…” (p. 5)
“Jesus never claims to be God, personally…” (p. 73)
But as long as the apostles were alive to defend the true faith, the teaching on Christ was held in check. As early as their time, the apostles warned about the possible deviation from the original teaching concerning Christ.
“I am afraid that your minds will be corrupted and that you will abandon your full and pure devotion to Christ – in the same way that Eve was deceived by the snake’s clever lies. For you gladly tolerate anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus, not the one we preached; and you accept a spirit and a gospel completely different from the Spirit and gospel you received from us.”
II Corinthians 11:3-4,
And how was this realized?
“When we read Paul’s Letter to the church at Corinth, it becomes clear that many problems faced the church within its own membership.
“Paul’s other letters also reveal controversies and power-struggles in the midst of encouragement and growth… Some people tried to mix Christian and non-Christian religious beliefs. The first letter of John speaks of those who once belonged to the Christian community but had now departed. They denied the true humanity of Jesus Christ.”Tim Dowley
Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity
p. 73
“It was when Christianity spread out into Pagan world that the idea of Jesus as a Savior God emerged.”Davies Powell
The Meaning of The dead Sea Scrolls
p. 90
“The earliest post-New Testament writers, known as the Apostolic Fathers, continued the development that had emerged in the later New Testament period of calling Jesus God. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the second century to the Ephesians, declares, ‘Jesus Christ our God was conceived of Mary’ (Eph 18:2) and, ‘God was now appearing in human form’ (Eph. 19:3).”Brian McDermott
Word Become Flesh
pp. 161-162
“The doctrine that Jesus had been God in human form was not finalized until the fourth century. The development of Christian belief in the Incarnation was a gradual, complex process. Jesus himself certainly never claimed to be God.”Karen Armstrong
A History of God: The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam
p. 81
“Like its worship, the faith of the Church underwent some development, and, in fact, its chief dogma, belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, was not defined until the Council of Nicaea in 325.”Thomas Bokenkotter
A Concise History of the Catholic Church
pp. 58-59
...
The Right and the Original Jesus Christ
part 2 of 2
The doctrine on the deity of Christ was defined only when the Council of Nicaea convened in the fourth century – over 200 years after the Bible had been completed; all the apostles were already dead at that time. Even prior to the formalization of the Christ-is-God doctrine, there were people already upholding this doctrine, Ignatius of Antioch, a bishop, was the one who introduced the teaching that Christ is God. This doctrine did not originate from the apostles. The warning of Apostle Paul concerning the teaching of different Jesus, thus, started to be realized. But this did not readily gain acceptance among the people.
When the controversy regarding the nature of Christ became serious, the unity of the empire and of the Roman Church was threatened. This prompted no less than the roman emperor to intervene. He attempted to resolve the conflict by convening a council of bishops.
“The emperor therefore stepped into the controversy and extended invitations for a great council to be held at Nicaea (325).
“The first emperor to become a Christian, Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology. In the controversy over the doctrine of Trinity he saw nothing more than unnecessary bickering of theologians, which might best be avoided by eschewing all speculation and by living together in love and harmony. At the same time Constantine was concerned about keeping or restoring ecclesiastical peace. After all, the Church had an important service to perform in his empire.”Bernard Lohse
A Short History of Christian Doctrine
p. 51
Constantine was only concerned about keeping or restoring peace and unity and the important role that the Catholic Church would have in his empire. Thus, whether or not the disputing officials of the Church agree on Christ’s alleged deity or on His humanity was of no bearing to Constantine as long as they would settle to only one stand that could promote unity.
So, what did Constantine do to influence the bishops who convened so that his interests and wishes would be served well?
“For the first time in its history, Christianity in the Roman Empire was no longer the persecuted religion… From a purely external point of view the change in the situation was evident to the bishops in the fact that they no longer needed to move about secretly nor did they have to use the normal means of travel to visit one another. They now had the privilege of coming to the council by means of transportation provided by the state, i.e., means which were intended for use by ranking state officials. At Nicaea the emperor provided lodging for the bishops in his palace. It was there, too, that the discussions took place, and in the presence of the emperor at that… It is understandable if the bishops showed their gratitude by generous efforts to oblige the emperor.
“In the course of the long discussions which now took place at Nicaea the emperor intervened personally several times.”Ibid.
pp. 51-52
“The Council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the Emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ.George Marshall
Challenge of a Liberal Faith
p. 60
“Constantine began to interfere in Church matters. His predecessors had dominated the Roman religions; so Constantine was following a precedent by trying to run the Church. A year after he became sole ruler, Constantine called the bishops together in a council to discuss a problem that was dividing Christians and was especially troublesome in the east.”Alphonsus Pluth
The Catholic Church: Our Mission in History
p. 99
“When Constantine picked out and convened the 318 bishops for the Council, the background was pure power politics, religious concerns taking very much of a backseat. Even the charismatic bishops can have been in no doubt about that, for not only did the Emperor preside over the Council, he also expressly proclaimed that his will was ecclesiastical law. The senior pastors accepted him as ‘Universal Bishop,’ even though he was uncrowned, and let him take part in votes on church dogma as a secular prince.”Erich Von Daniken
Miracles of the Gods
p. 57
Finally, in 325 AD, the council concluded with the decision in response to the order of the emperor. From then on, Christ has been recognized by the Catholic Church as God.
“Thus, for example, it was not until 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicaea, that the Church defined for us that it was an article of faith that Jesus is truly God.”Rev. Clement H. Crock
Discourses on the Apostles’ Creed
p. 206
“Once this “Nicene Creed” had been publicly signed by all the bishops and promulgated by Constantine, it became the official creed for all Christians. To deny the divinity of Christ in any way was to put oneself outside of the Christian community and was a crime against the state.”Ronald J. Wilkins
The Emerging Church, Pat One.
p. 110
Jesus Christ is a man. Nowhere in the Bible can be found that He is God. Christ is not and never been the true God. He is the Son of God, the Savior, the Head of the Church, the Mediator, the Lord, and everything that God made Him to be, but He is a man. The true Christ is a man, not a God. This is the original doctrine upheld by the early Christians, not the dogma formulated by the bishops of the Catholic Church and formalized at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.
For a true Christian, nothing can be more important than to uphold the true words of God that serve as a firm foundation upon which he is anchored. Such is the characteristic that he should possess for him to become firm and steadfast.
“Then we shall no longer be children, carried by the waves and blown about by every shifting wind of the teaching of deceitful people, who lead others into error by the tricks they invent.”
Ephesians 4:14
Originally posted by JediHDM
There is a difference between a man calling himself God and God becoming man. As for the Trinity, they are not seperate in the sense of Zeus is seperate from Hera, etc., but seperate as in perform different functions. It is like you mouth, your eye and your hand. Each is you, but your eyes cannot chew and your hands cannot see. It is the same with God. Each part of the Triune God has a purpose, but they are all the same.
They are all the same in the sense that they all have one purpose.... and these purpose is for the goodness of the "flock" or of God's people....
...but they are certainly not ONE same person. 🙂
Originally posted by Jury
Jesus Christ is a man. Nowhere in the Bible can be found that He is God.
John 10:29, 30 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One."
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man is Christ Jesus,"
Originally written by Collin Hansen
Watershed at Nicea
Brown is right about one thing (and not much more). In the course of Christian history, few events loom larger than the Council of Nicea in 325. When the newly converted Roman Emperor Constantine called bishops from around the world to present-day Turkey, the church had reached a theological crossroads.Led by an Alexandrian theologian named Arius, one school of thought argued that Jesus had undoubtedly been a remarkable leader, but he was not God in flesh. Arius proved an expert logician and master of extracting biblical proof texts that seemingly illustrated differences between Jesus and God, such as John 14:28: "the Father is greater than I." In essence, Arius argued that Jesus of Nazareth could not possibly share God the Father's unique divinity.
In The Da Vinci Code, Brown apparently adopts Arius as his representative for all pre-Nicene Christianity. Referring to the Council of Nicea, Brown claims that "until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by His followers as a mortal prophet … a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless."
In reality, early Christians overwhelmingly worshipped Jesus Christ as their risen Savior and Lord. Before the church adopted comprehensive doctrinal creeds, early Christian leaders developed a set of instructional summaries of belief, termed the "Rule" or "Canon" of Faith, which affirmed this truth. To take one example, the canon of prominent second-century bishop Irenaeus took its cue from 1 Corinthians 8:6: "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ."
The term used here—Lord, Kyrios—deserves a bit more attention. Kyrios was used by the Greeks to denote divinity (though sometimes also, it is true, as a simple honorific). In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint, pre-dating Christ), this term became the preferred substitution for "Jahweh," the holy name of God. The Romans also used it to denote the divinity of their emperor, and the first-century Jewish writer Josephus tells us that the Jews refused to use it of the emperor for precisely this reason: only God himself was kyrios.
The Christians took over this usage of kyrios and applied it to Jesus, from the earliest days of the church. They did so not only in Scripture itself (which Brown argues was doctored after Nicea), but in the earliest extra-canonical Christian book, the Didache, which scholars agree was written no later than the late 100s. In this book, the earliest Aramaic-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as Lord.
In addition, pre-Nicene Christians acknowledged Jesus's divinity by petitioning God the Father in Christ's name. Church leaders, including Justin Martyr, a second-century luminary and the first great church apologist, baptized in the name of the triune God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—thereby acknowledging the equality of the one Lord's three distinct persons.
The Council of Nicea did not entirely end the controversy over Arius's teachings, nor did the gathering impose a foreign doctrine of Christ's divinity on the church. The participating bishops merely affirmed the historic and standard Christian beliefs, erecting a united front against future efforts to dilute Christ's gift of salvation.
Originally posted by ska57
John 10:29, 30 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One."1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,"
First verse: try to go on the preceding verse/s... you will learn why or in what way do God and Christ are one. 🙂
...you'll learn that they (God and Christ) are one in taking care of the "flock". ... not of being God.
Second verse: What's wrong with the verse.. it only emphasize that there is only one God, and this is the Father... and also there is one Mediator between God and men... and this man is Christ.
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
First verse: try to go on the preceding verse/s... you will learn why or in what way do God and Christ are one. 🙂...you'll learn that they (God and Christ) are one in taking care of the "flock". ... not of being God.
Second verse: What's wrong with the verse.. it only emphasize that there is only one God, and this is the Father... and also there is one Mediator between God and men... and this man is Christ.
🙂
"First verse: try to go on the preceding verse/s... you will learn why or in what way do God and Christ are one. 🙂
...you'll learn that they (God and Christ) are one in taking care of the "flock". ... not of being God."
It also says that people like you will not understand because you are not of His sheep. Jesus said He was one with God, and the second verse says that there is one God, so that proves that Jesus and God are one.
Originally posted by cornponious
Yes, God and Jesus are one and the same. Jesus was the son of God, but at the same time was God incarnate.John 10:30 states (Jesus speaking): "I and my father are one."
That pretty much clears it up.
cornponious
The bible also says that a man and wife shall be as one.
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Jesus is the Son of God, if he was not, then who was he praying to and why would he pray to himself?
When Jesus was being baptized: Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Again, was he talking from above to himself while he was being baptized telling himself he was well pleased?
Who is sitting on the Right hand of God?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Fiery Eyes >You are using circular reasoning, "Jesus is the son of God because The Bible says so and what The Bible says is true because it is the word of God."
Its clear that you are not wanting to discuss this topic so why be in this thread? The issue here is not rather or not God or Jesus exist, in this thread, it's if they do exist, are they one. Read the other post. I was asking questions and wanting to discuss the issue at hand.