Originally posted by Captain REX
You'd take Insider magazine over the Official Site and the Visual Dictionary? For shame.
He had two of them killed before Mace participated in the battle
and then simply used the lack of room to overcome Kit Fisto.
And you status within the order doesn't say anything about you duelling skills.
- when Sidious starts attacking on the Jedi you can see that Mace is the only one that reacts (pulling his lightsaber up and get away from Sidious)
Saesee Tiin had the opportunity to simply cut Sidious down while he was killing Agen Kolar - they both did nothing. Kit Fisto only managed to get his saber up before getting killed.
- now he starts attacking Mace and Mace parries Sidious two-handed strikes with the lightsaber in one hand and Sidious never gets close to hitting him. When they lock sabers you can even see that Mace is superior here since Sidious has a hard time to stay alive (look at the expression on his face)
- when watching carefully you can see that Mace had the opportunity to cut Sidious head off just after you can see Anakin entering the Senate building. Sidious has his sword down on his side and Mace is ready to strike but he doesn't do it - he "waits" till Sidious is ready to parry again.
- right after that you can see Sidious giving ground from the middle of the room to the window and he has a hard time parrying Mace's strikes
- right after destroying the window Mace is moving his swords in circles with the LEFT hand (which is not his weaponhand). Sorry - noone would do that in front of an enemy that he consideres dangerous.
- then Sidious tries to attack again and he has to go down on his knees to protect his head from being cut off right away by Windu. I won't even do that while "toying" with an opponent that is MUCH weaker than me because if Mace in this situation would have simply moved his saber backwards this would again have resultet in Sidious literally losing his head.
- and at the end you have Sidious losing his weapon and sorry - that can't be faked even if you a far superior to your opponent you can't make him kick away your weapon. Mace was clearly suprising Sidious here.
So Mace Windu did defeat Sidious in lightsaber combat and anyone that wants to tell me something different is either a Sidious fanboy who can't accept the facts or stupid or has no idea about swordfighting. You can chose your favourite from these three things.
but he didn't fake the lightsaber fight because this was not possible.
He couldn't have stopped the saber with the lightning. Mace as a hard time deflecting the lightning while simply holding the saber but I doubt that Sidious would be able stop that strike with a lightning.
Yet...even if he could have done that how should he have jumped ?
He was lying on his back and even assuming he would have been able to get away somehow: The next lightsaber was lying in another room and he had to cross a corridor to get there or at least move through his office to force pull a lightsaber. What should have stopped Mace from cutting him down from behind or simply throwing his own saber to kill Sidious ?
he databank only says that Yoda wasn't able to defeat Sidious in the situation at the end of their fight and we all could see that Sidious only was LUCKY in that fight not more skilled than Yoda.
See above...everyone who thinks Sidious let Mace win is:
In fact Sidious can't defeat Mace or Yoda in a lightsaber fight that's why he lost against Mace and tried to run away from Yoda....
Originally posted by darthsith19
Exactly my point. He was skilled enough to kill 2 Jedi Masters before Mace could even move.
Mace did move but you can see that the other people were between him and Sidious at that point. So what should he have done ? Cut through the other Jedi to kill Sidious ?
You can see Agen Kolar getting killed without even moving his sword. Same for Saesee Tiin who could have simply cut Sidious down from behind but did not.
Doesn't matter, he still beat Kit while fending off Mace.
He cut down Kit with a back hand movement WHILE turning towards Mace again. He used the fact that there wasn't much room for movements and the Jedi would have hit each other while trying to land a killing strike on him. I'm not saying he's a bad duellist.
No, Saesee Tiin raises his lightsaber to strike Sidious but Sidious kills him before he can finish the swing.
Wrong. Tiin had his lightsaber already up BEFORE Sidious did kill Kolar - btw. how much power do you think you need behind a strike to kill somebody with a weapon that cuts through everything like a knife cuts through butter ?
Mace also could have killed Sidious while Sidious was killing Agen and Saesee. Or could he? Apparently not, otherwise he would have.
He couldn't. Agen was in his way and he moved into a defensive stance.
Duh, Sidious was faking it.
Why should he ?
So Mace could have killed Sidious but didn't. Why? And why would Sidious have his saber at his side unless he wasn't really trying?
That was out of a movement. Sidious was turning around before that, Mace had his saber up and Sidious had his saber on his side pointing downwards. Why Mace didn't kill Sidious ? Ever heared something about Jedi philosophy ? He was there to arrest Sidious - not to kill him.
Ah, but Mace does consider Sidious dangerous. "He's too dangerous to be left alive!"
After Sidious unleashed his lightning on Mace. That was a different situation. Mace didn't want to risk Sidious receiving an acquittal by the Senate / the Senate's court. Sidious is dangerous because of his political influence.
If Mace could have killed Sidious he would have.
He would not - see above. He had Sidious without a weapon and still didn't want to kill Sidious until Sidious had used lightning on him. Otherwise he would have simply killed him after kicking the lightsaber out of his hands.
Sidious didn't seem surprised. And yes, it was faked. How would it be hard to fake?
He WAS suprised. And there is no way to fake that situation. Mace kicked Sidious lightsaber out of his hands. How Sidious should have faked that ? Holding the weapon in a way that Mace could do nothing else than kicking it away ? LOL. As I said: You have NO idea about swordfighting.
I'm neither. I would like nothing better than to say Mace won, fair and square. But I can't because I know it'd be a lie. And Mace is way cooler than Sidious.
It's no lie. Case closed.
LOL, of course it was possible? How was it not possible? Palpatine could just try hard enough to make Mace think he was trying as hard as he could, then let Mace "win" when eh sensed Anakin approaching.
You can't fake losing your weapon by letting your opponent kick it out of your hand. He could have dropped it while parrying one of Mace swings (pretending that he didn't have enough physical power to keep it in hand) but not the way you think he have done it. That's simply impossible because he can't know what Mace would do next. He could have losed his hands while "pretending to lose".
And please explain to me why Sidious should have faked the fight ? To get Anakin to the dark side ? Imagine Mace would just have told Anakin to arrest Sidious - Sidious would have lost. Imagine Mace just killing Sidious without talking to him - again he would have lost. See - far too many possibilities. Sidious wouldn't have risked his life by faking that fight.
Why not? He knocked Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hand.
Yoda dropped his lightsaber to deflect Sidious lightning. Read the damn script if you don't thrust me. And may I remind you that Yoda was just holding the lightsaber in his left hand (which is not compareable to someone swinging it towards you) and Mace is MUCH superior to Yoda in terms of physical strength.
No, he would have jumped instead of blocking it.
He was on his back. Lying on the ground. How should he have "jumped" ? And where ? Out of the window ? Because the other direction he would have jumped directly into Mace lightsaber.
He is definately stronger than Mace Force-wsie. He could use Force run to run into the next room and then get a lightsaber. easy as pie.
He has to be FAR more powerful than Mace if he can accelerate his own body more than Mace could accelerate his lightsaber throw. This is again stupid.
Lucky? No. After knocking Yoda's saber out of his hand he was winning fair and square from that point on. And the databank doesn't say Mace won fair and square. Don;t know what you're talking about. We will get an official answer on the ROTS DVD.
LOL. Just LOL. Sidious winning ? Yoda BLASTED him over the edge of the pod and he was LUCKY to have a handle at his side of the pod otherwise he would have fallen down just like Yoda.
And from the Databank:
"Windu had disarmed Sidious and cornered the treacherous Sith Lord into the frame of his expansive office window." Sidious faking ?
"With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning." Sidious faking when he only was able to defeat Mace with the help of Anakin ?
And here from Palpatines page on the databank:
"Windu overpowered Palpatine the instant Anakin Skywalker came running into the offices."
So please tell me again that Sidious "faked" it - rofl...
LOL, that's stupid. Sidious sucks, I'm not stupid and what would knwoing about swordfighting have to do with this? I saw the movie.
You saw the movie ? Obviously you haven't watched it often enough. And knowing about swordfighting would help you interpretaing SWORDFIGHTS...
This is ridiculous. All proof says Sidious was faking it against Mace and he tried to run from Yoda because he had to much at stake to risk a duel, but that doesn't matter because he didn't manage to run away and guess what? He won. If Dooku had tried to run away from Obi-Wan in AOTC would that make Obi-Wan stronger? No, of course not.
a) What proof you're talking about ? All I have seen from you are assumptions on the edge of irrealism. All "proof" is on my side (the action in the film, the databank).
b) He run from Yoda because Yoda was superior. Yoda can be seen to be both - superior in force use and lightsaber combat compared to Sidious. And Sidious ran because he hadn't any hope to kill Yoda otherwise he would have done that because he wanted Yoda dead. Your "logic" kills me...
Sidious lost on purpose only because , the Emp's main goal besides to rule the galexy was to get Anakin onto the dark side. Palp spoke to Anakin in his head saying that if he is destroyed then Padme will be lost fore ever. Anakin came stoped MAce from hurting Palp, and then my man Palpatine found his advantege and killed Mace. Also I found on line an interviw with GL about these same questions, GL said that Palp is the strongest character in the whole movie because Palp looks beyond the good and the dark side. He does not depend on power.
Originally posted by slasher0630As right as your are, why do Junior members always have such bad grammer?
Sidious lost on purpose only because , the Emp's main goal besides to rule the galexy was to get Anakin onto the dark side. Palp spoke to Anakin in his head saying that if he is destroyed then Padme will be lost fore ever. Anakin came stoped MAce from hurting Palp, and then my man Palpatine found his advantege and killed Mace. Also I found on line an interviw with GL about these same questions, GL said that Palp is the strongest character in the whole movie because Palp looks beyond the good and the dark side. He does not depend on power.
Mace did move but you can see that the other people were between him and Sidious at that point. So what should he have done ? Cut through the other Jedi to kill Sidious ?
You can see Agen Kolar getting killed without even moving his sword. Same for Saesee Tiin who could have simply cut Sidious down from behind but did not.
He cut down Kit with a back hand movement WHILE turning towards Mace again. He used the fact that there wasn't much room for movements and the Jedi would have hit each other while trying to land a killing strike on him. I'm not saying he's a bad duellist.
Wrong. Tiin had his lightsaber already up BEFORE Sidious did kill Kolar -
btw. how much power do you think you need behind a strike to kill somebody with a weapon that cuts through everything like a knife cuts through butter ?
He couldn't. Agen was in his way and he moved into a defensive stance.
Why should he ?
Ever heared something about Jedi philosophy ? He was there to arrest Sidious - not to kill him.
After Sidious unleashed his lightning on Mace. That was a different situation. Mace didn't want to risk Sidious receiving an acquittal by the Senate / the Senate's court. Sidious is dangerous because of his political influence.
He would not - see above. He had Sidious without a weapon and still didn't want to kill Sidious until Sidious had used lightning on him. Otherwise he would have simply killed him after kicking the lightsaber out of his hands.
He WAS suprised. And there is no way to fake that situation. Mace kicked Sidious lightsaber out of his hands. How Sidious should have faked that ?
Holding the weapon in a way that Mace could do nothing else than kicking it away ? LOL. As I said: You have NO idea about swordfighting.
It's no lie. Case closed.
You can't fake losing your weapon by letting your opponent kick it out of your hand.
That's simply impossible because he can't know what Mace would do next. He could have losed his hands while "pretending to lose".
Imagine Mace would just have told Anakin to arrest Sidious - Sidious would have lost.
Imagine Mace just killing Sidious without talking to him - again he would have lost.
Yoda dropped his lightsaber to deflect Sidious lightning.
He was on his back. Lying on the ground. How should he have "jumped" ? And where ? Out of the window ? Because the other direction he would have jumped directly into Mace lightsaber.
He has to be FAR more powerful than Mace if he can accelerate his own body more than Mace could accelerate his lightsaber throw. This is again stupid.
Yoda BLASTED him over the edge of the pod and he was LUCKY to have a handle at his side of the pod otherwise he would have fallen down just like Yoda.
"Windu had disarmed Sidious and cornered the treacherous Sith Lord into the frame of his expansive office window." Sidious faking ?
"With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning." Sidious faking when he only was able to defeat Mace with the help of Anakin ?
"Windu overpowered Palpatine the instant Anakin Skywalker came running into the offices."
So please tell me again that Sidious "faked" it - rofl...
You saw the movie ? Obviously you haven't watched it often enough. And knowing about swordfighting would help you interpretaing SWORDFIGHTS...
a) What proof you're talking about ? All I have seen from you are assumptions on the edge of irrealism. All "proof" is on my side (the action in the film, the databank).
b) He run from Yoda because Yoda was superior. Yoda can be seen to be both - superior in force use and lightsaber combat compared to Sidious. And Sidious ran because he hadn't any hope to kill Yoda otherwise he would have done that because he wanted Yoda dead. Your "logic" kills me...
Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes. They were doomed anyway. Then Sidious would have died and would never have taken over the galaxy.
a) This isn't what he would do - you know that.
b) I already said he moved into an defensive position.
No, there's a pic that someone (can't remember who) used to post of the duel. Sidious had his saber through Agen and it dhowed that Saesee had moved his lightsaber. Just very slowly.
From the situation before Sidious jumped over to the group until he cut down Saesee, Saesee moved his lightsaber about 10 centrimetres up - why ? As I said - you need no power to cut something with a lightsaber, so why even try to make a swing in this situation ?
Hmm, I'll have to watch the duel again. But still, even if he get kit while swinging at Mace is must have taken a little extra time. Just a very small ammount but still enough for Mace to have stabbed him if he were indeed stronger.
Again - Sidious was using the lack of space. He moved in between the two Jedi and thereby took them any opportunity to strike him down because they had no space to swing and if they would have had it they would have hit the other.
I'm pretty sure your wrong. One time I saw a small video of Sidious stabbing Agen and then saesee. It played over and over again and I'm pretty sure Saesee raised his lightsaber, at least a couple inches.
With "up" I meant he had the lightsaber in his hand and in a position he could have striked Sidious down since no power is needed behind a lightsaber strike. He moved it up a few inches, yes, but that was simply senseless.
Hmm... Luke didn't cut through Vader's arm in ESB.
Vader was wearing his suit that might have protected him or Luke might not really wanted to cut that arm of - we don't know. Fact is that a lightsaber cuts through everything and can easily cut through bones, metal and stuff like that. Why put strength behind your strike ? Hell...a little burning at his back would have put Sidious out of the fight at least made him slower. Why not do it ?
Better to kill Sidious and sacrifice Agen in the process than lose all four of those Jedi + a thousand more.
As I said - Mace wouldn't cut through another Jedi and he was in a defensive position.
To turn Anakin to the Dark Side.
Oh yes. Sidious would simply liked to look weaker to turn Anakin to the Dark Side - Anakin who wasn't even in the building at this point not to mention he was not in a position where he could see the expression on Sidious face. Sorry...that IS stupid.
Yet after he disarmed Sidious he tried to kill him, because he said he was to dangerous. Obviously he realised Sidious was dangerous from their duel and during the duel he must have known Sidious was a threat to him. So betetr to kill Sidious then as opposed to risk his life to capture him.
Obviously you didn't watch the movie to often. After Mace disarmed Sidious he again told him that it is over and he's arrested. Doesn't sound to me like he wanted to kill him. If Mace simply wanted to kill Sidious he would have done that before Anakin entered the office and he wouldn't have wasted time by telling Sidious again that he is arrested. So obviously you are wrong here.
The first time Mace wanted to kill Sidious is after Sidious used his lightning.
He never wanted Sidious to go before the Senate because of his political influence. That has nothing to do with the lightning.
Read the above and watch the movie again...
He wasn't sure what to do yet.
See above...
Like he did.No, you have no idea about that duel. if what you said about Mace not wanting to kill him is true he knew Mace would disarm him rather than kill him.
Really...your logic is rediculous. Please stop that. You simply can't forsee what your opponent will do. Mace could have "disarmed" him another way (literally) or simply kill him - Sidious can't know what Mace would do next. It's really as simple as that.
LOL, your outnumbered 17 to 5.
a) The majority isn't always right.
b) Oh...please...what do votes say ? I have seen no one putting any real argument in this thread for Sidious faking it.
Of course it's possible because Sidious did it.LOL, he has clouded the minds of the entire Jedi order. he could foresee what Mace was going to do.
No, for one thing he foresaw it, for another he is the Senate, remember? he'd have escaped.
Let me remind you of a few things. Sidious foresight isn't that great. May I remind you of ROTJ ? "Your friend will die" / "You will die" - if he's that great in foreseeing things he would have survived ROTJ. He didn't. Sidious is a masterplanner but not a foresight genious.
Then you have again forgotten something. The Jedi planned to take over the Senate. You can see them planning that because they knew that Sidious or somebody near Sidious must be the Sith Lord and they didn't want that person to have control over the Senate.
And what the hell has "clouding peoples mind" to do with "forsight" ? Completely different topics. That's like saying "Hey...Obi-Wan could force push Grievous he MUST be able to use force lightning !"
No, he could have stopped the saber with Force lightning.
Proof ? Oh...
Why when he could have blocked it with his saber? And it's his own fault he wasn't holding it with 2 hands. the script? It says The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber.
Since when is Mace = Yoda ? As I said...the situation was completely different.
How should he have jumped? Same way Anakin did in AOTC to block Dooku's saber. Only Palpatine's alot stronger than Anakin was then. And Mace was swinging straight down. Sidious would have jumped to the side.
a) Anakin stood up before jumping.
b) Mace was swinging the saber from beyond his head right side down towards Sidious. So Sidious could have jumped out of the window (he might have survived that), directly into Mace or into Mace saber. Oh..stop..he couldn't have jumped because he was lying on his back.
No offense, Nai Fohl, but that's the stupidest thing you've ever said. If Macw threw his saber Sidious would have used the Force to either get it or re-direct it and then blast mace with lightning.
Cool. Sidious using force speed and AT THE SAME TIME throw a saber back that was accelerated and moving at him from behind. And you call me stupid ?
No, he blasted Yoda off. But it was fair. No rules against not using railings to your advantage.
Watch the movie again. Sidious gave Yoda all he had. Yoda was looking away and then he looked back and you can see Sidious losing. Than Yoda was thrown back 1 metre while Sidious was thrown back for about 3-4 metres and you still want to tell me, that Sidious blasted Yoda off ? Sorry...that's again rediculous.
The databank has many mistakes.
But only when it's against your oppinion, right ?
Exactly. Palpatine let Mace corner him just as Anakin entered. He timed it perfectly.
That's the worst interpretation of "being overpowered" I've ever seen.
Sidious faked it.
Again...no proof...
Swordfighter. Human swordfighters, not Jedi and Sith. You know no more about that kind of dueling then I do. They're not just regular people swordfighting, they're extremely powerful Force-users lightsaber dueling. Big difference.
Oh...sure...big difference. You maybe know that lightsaber fighting techniques were designed from swordfighting techniques and you might know that there are things you will never do in melee combat no matter what weapons are used.
And sorry...nobody would move in a position where somebody can cut his head of easily (without any possible defence) because he wants to and nobody can fake losing his weapon by letting the opponent kicking it out of his hand - unless he had told the opponent before the fight to do it. That are elemental rules and it doesn't matter if the opponents are normal swordfighters, Jedi / Sith or grandmas in wheelchairs aimed with canes.
You know very well what proof. Obviously there is proof if I am winning by 12 votes. If over 77% of the people are on my side.
You can see in the movie that Mace won. Even the novel tells you that Mace won. What else do you need. And if the only "proof" you have are the votes of other people - sorry...that's no "proof" at all. I have seen people here trying to tell me that Maul can beat Yoda in a lightsaber fight...so what ?
Yoda is superior? No, you're wrong. If Yoda was superior then why did Sidious win?
Because:
a) If Yoda had won the OT would be quite senseless.
b) Sidious was lucky.
From the starwars.com databank. If you don't believe that I also have the movie and Star wars Trivial pursuit on my side.
a) "The databank has many mistakes." (Oh...seems I'm as smart as you are, huh ?)
b) Who was discussing that Yoda lost ? But Yoda didn't lose because Sidious was superior and this is evrything I said.
Once Palpatine drew his sword, they all should have tried to kill him no matter what. If you pull a weapon on a cop, they are within their rights to blast you. Mace & the boys came in like cops to arrest Palpatine, there shouldn't have been any talk with Anakin about not taking him out, Mace shoulda done it right there.
I suppose, however, it would be hard NOT to talk to your enemy in Mace's situation!
Sidious lost, simple as that.
Saying that he threw the fight is completly out of character for him; Sidious is a planner, a strategist, like a chess master. Leting Mace win to get Anakin's sympathy is completely against his nature as it leaves everything to chance. What if Anakin had been held up for a few seconds? What if Mace had decided to 'go for it' and killed Sidious without hesitation? Would he really have taken that big of a risk?
"Oh...sure...big difference. You maybe know that lightsaber fighting techniques were designed from swordfighting techniques and you might know that there are things you will never do in melee combat no matter what weapons are used.
And sorry...nobody would move in a position where somebody can cut his head of easily (without any possible defence) because he wants to and nobody can fake losing his weapon by letting the opponent kicking it out of his hand - unless he had told the opponent before the fight to do it. That are elemental rules and it doesn't matter if the opponents are normal swordfighters, Jedi / Sith or grandmas in wheelchairs aimed with canes."
Exactly. Nai Fohl has explained it perfectly.
As for Yoda vs Sidious, again Sidious got his backside kicked and it was only circumstance that allowed him to escape with his life. He didn't win.