Dooku, Mace, Luminara vs. Kavar, Vrook, and Depa
Strange thead, I know, but I was in the car for over thirty hours to get out of Galveston. Those roads are THE definition of hell on earth. God that was bad. Anyway, I'm broken on this matchup.
We have the greatest Makashi, Vapaad, and the second best Soresu users of their times against the some Jedi who fought wars and a powerful Student.
I have no idea...
Vrook and Kavar both seem powerful and they are probably meant to be like some of the people in the movies. Kavar is definitely supposed to be a Mace Windu type character. Vrook is a mix of a few people. But that doesn't mean jack shit.
I have plenty of quotes, but in order to make them win I will have to start using absurd logic... Lets do that anyways.
untill all that remains is a shell of a mandalorian, wearing a shell of their armor, to easily slain by a jedi.
Kreia said that. Now who was she referring too? Obviously Jango Fett, he was the last of what you could consider a real Mandelorian and he was slain by a Jedi. Too easily slain by a Jedi. She said Jango Fett was a nothing that he was worthless that he wouldn't stand a chance against any of the Mandelorians in her time.
Still Jango killed Jedi in straight up fights. He almost defeated Vader in one EU story (which is just stupid) he defeated a council member and Mace Windu considered him a challenge. Mace Windu second in command of the Jedi Order considered a Mandelorian that was by all means weak compared to the older one's a challenge.
Now the absurd logic comes into play.
Jango Fett was nothing compared to the Mandelorians of old. Mandelorians that all followed Mandalore during the Mandelorian wars. Mandalore started that war to fight against Kavar. The all powerful Jedi Master that he thought would be a challenge for him. That he hoped would be a challenge. Meaning that a Mandelorian far more powerful then Jango saw a challenge in a Master and that Master probably did in him. Just like Jango saw a challenge in Mace and Mace in him.
So what does that tell us that
Jango=challenge for Mace
Jango=nothing compared to ancient Mandelorian let alone stand Mandalore of the Mandalorian wars.
Mandalore=challenge for Kavar.
Ergo
Mandalore=Is Kavar his Jango Fett. So Mace is nothing compared to Kavar.
If this is true then we can safely say that Mace and Dooku stand no chance. Because Vrook was in command of the Jedi Council during Kotor times, or at least second in command. Copied and pasted the next quote directly from another post of mine. Sorry if its not completely on topic but I didn't feel like making the same point again. Besides I think it still stands.
If anything the powers in Kotor are kinda vague.It seems to me that in Kotor 1 Vrook and Vandar are in command the rest is just kinda there. In Kotor II Vrook judges over the Exile and his word seems to be more important then that of anybody else in the council. Making it seem like he is in command, honestly I'm not quite sure if Vandar was there or not but it would seem logical.
Kotor I portrays Vandar as the leader a Yoda like figure and probably more powerful, Kotor II does the same for Vrook.
Also a strange thing, Vrook is on Dantooine in Kotor I but then in Kotoor II in a time thats earlier he is on Coruscant in the council there. Possibly the leader of the council. Why would Vrook be on Dantooine then? I can think of one reason.
Revan.
You see Vrook was a powerful Jedi Master who obviously knew and trained Revan. Then Revan returned now who are you going to send to train him again, you can not honestly tell me that the council on Dantooine would train somebody like Revan. It would be bullshit. They couldn't possibly pull it off, so what better excuse is there then for the council to go into hiding on the planet that just happens to be the home of Bastila and is going to be the home of Revan. And just happens to have a Star Map. You can't honestly tell me its a good place to hide either because Malak and Revan both knew about the Academy on Dantooine.
So it seems to me that some of the more powerful and wiser masters were send to Dantooine to train Revan there again. Now there could be a million reasons for Kavar not being there, but he simply wasn't.
So what does that tell us about Vrook.
He's wise and powerful, considered good enough to train Revan again even though Revan fell to the Dark Side the first time, and this time its even more important then the first time. He could be the head of the council and if not he's at least second in command. We also know he had a great control over the force (as seen by freezing the Exile) and we know that he was powerful. He does teach the Exile the most powerful of techniques in all games, whether its the most powerful force technique or lightsaber style this guy teaches it. So Vrook had to be powerful, good with a lightsaber and wise.
What do we know about Kavar.
Just a few quotes saying he had more experience in combat then any other Jedi before the Mandelorian wars. That the Mandelorians thought he would be a worthy opponent and that he would fight the Mandelorians. That he was the leader of the Jedi Guardians and that he was a good tactician. We also know he lost from Malak.
Giving us two hard people to judge, but I'm judging in favour of Vrook.
So this gives us the following.
Jango=challenge for Mace
Jango=nothing compared to ancient Mandelorian let alone stand Mandalore of the Mandalorian wars.
Mandalore=challenge for Kavar.
Mandalore=Is Kavar his Jango Fett. So Mace is nothing compared to Kavar.
Kavar=Weaker then Vrook as Vrook is in command of the Jedi Council.
Mace=Challenge for Dooku
Vrook=More powerful then Kavar who is more powerful then Mace, meaning that Vrook is more powerful then Dooku
Now I know this post is filled with assumptions and absurd logic, based on little evidence all directed from one single quote from Kreia. I myself don't even know if I believe all of this, i'm just saying it for the point of debating.
Fact is however if this is true then Kavar Vrook and Depa own... If not then it remains vague.
Well I don't really agree. Mace would probably beat Kavar since in a thread about 2 weeks ago Mace almost beated Revan who would easily slaughter Kavar. And yes he said Jango would be a challenge for him, was he? No he was killed easily. So I don't think Mace team would be owned. Mace would beat Obi-Wan with a not to hard fight in ROTS and in AOTC Obi-Wan was a challenge for Jango.
Originally posted by kamikz
Well I don't really agree. Mace would probably beat Kavar since in a thread about 2 weeks ago Mace almost beated Revan who would easily slaughter Kavar. And yes he said Jango would be a challenge for him, was he? No he was killed easily. So I don't think Mace team would be owned. Mace would beat Obi-Wan with a not to hard fight in ROTS and in AOTC Obi-Wan was a challenge for Jango.
First of all: Oppinions about Revan vs Mace do not concern me and have nothing to do with this thread. Revan would waste Mace btw.
Second: Mace did take care of Jango fett quite easily by slicing off his head. But that doesn't change the fact that Jango could have been a challenge for Mace, and that Mace did consider him as one. He obviously thought he was important enough to attack and kill instead of occupying himself with other things.
Third: What does this fight have to do with Obi Wan?
Oh please, Fishy...that logic isn't absurde it's absolutely horrible.
a)
Jango Fett could have killed pretty much of the "ancient" Mandalorians, seeing what he is able to do. So assuming that he is weaker than them is somehow very stupid. Mace in Shatterpoint calls him the "deadliest man in the galaxy" and that is what he most likely is. Keep in mind that if Kreia is really talking about Jango this is 4,000 years in the future where really powerful people (like Yoda) always tell how hard it is to even predict the "near" future - not to mention millenia. And this is something that all Sith fail to do even people who can be considered far more powerful than Kreia (Ragnos).
b)
Where did you get the idea that Mandalore was a match for Kavar since they never faced each other ? And Mandalore wanted to test Kavar's military genious not his duelling skills. No mandalorian has a chance versus "major" force users. The Exile defeated all champions on Dxun, Ulic Quel-Droma pretty much wasted Mandalore, Revan killed Mandalore, Mace killed Jango. One of the champions on Dxun even tells you that they had no chance against Jedi in direct combat.
I think KotoR time Mandalorians and the "newer" Mandalorians are pretty equal when it comes to "skill" but the later Mandalorians have better weapons when it comes to "duels" while the old Mandalorians were more up to destroying entire planets.
And of course Mace did consider Jango as a challenge because Jango killed Jedi before. But may I remind you that Jango only hardly escaped AotC Obi-Wan and Mace is FAR superior to AotC Obi ?
c)
Revan wasting Mace ? Sorry...this will never happen.
Back to the topic: We hardly have any evidence about Kavar and Vrook despite the fact that both were in the Jedi Council . Depa is Mace former Padawan...well...
We do know that neither Vrook nor Kavar did practice Makashi. So form wise they would be inferior to Dooku. Both don't know Vaapad so they would be confronted with something they had never seen before.
Now Mace is known to be second in command of the Jedi Council in PT times and he's close to Yoda at least in swordfighting abilities. Since Yoda is said to be the most powerful Jedi ever (and most likely he really is) with Mace being a close second and Dooku in the same league how should Kavar and Vrook be a match for Mace and Dooku ?
Hell...Mace obliterated hundrets of super battle droids with HIS BARE HANDS ! I don't think Vrook and Kavar would be able to do that.
So powerwise Dooku, Mace > Kavar, Vrook
Lightsaber skills: Dooku, Mace > Kavar Vrook
Thereby Dooku and Mace will take Kavar and Vrook. Depa might kill Luminara but she will lose against Mace or Dooku (or both of them) later. So Mace team wins.
Oh please, Fishy...that logic isn't absurde it's absolutely horrible.
Trust me: we're all guilty of that from time to time. But I give Fishy credit for saying outright it was what he had and he didn't call it bonafide truth. you should too.
Keep in mind that if Kreia is really talking about Jango this is 4,000 years in the future where really powerful people (like Yoda) always tell how hard it is to even predict the "near" future - not to mention millenia. And this is something that all Sith fail to do even people who can be considered far more powerful than Kreia (Ragnos).
This isn't neccessarily true: Kreia DOES see the future, and vividly. Obviously the reference was to be about Jango (Or perhaps Boba, but doubtful on that one) and obviously the workers at Obsidian intended for us to believe in the validity of her prophecies, or else they would have all been off the wall. Trying to discredit Kreia based on Ragnos' inability to see the future (despite him being particularly conservative and smart about his power... for all we know he -could- see the future; no one managed to usurp his throne in a century and a half!) is a poor example of sampling. If one trooper can't shoot straight, must they all shoot poorly? Millions? And Yoda's quote... he said "difficult to see, the future always is" He didn't say "zOMG, padawan... no future can anyone see, of all time, ever, amen".
The Exile defeated all champions on Dxun, Ulic Quel-Droma pretty much wasted Mandalore, Revan killed Mandalore, Mace killed Jango. One of the champions on Dxun even tells you that they had no chance against Jedi in direct combat.
I'd like to point out that the option of defeating the champions on Dxun is an optional quest and isn't canon (meaning it's an option that you can do without and isn't neccessarily part of the overall storyline.) Perhaps in KOTOR III it will indeed be the case (As KOTOR II shows that Revan was a swoop champ on Mannon) but to say it as fact without acknowledging the subjective nature of it is silly. Especialyl when you're bashing someone else for being "horrible".
I think KotoR time Mandalorians and the "newer" Mandalorians are pretty equal when it comes to "skill" but the later Mandalorians have better weapons when it comes to "duels" while the old Mandalorians were more up to destroying entire planets.
I more or less agree with this, I suppose. The early Mandalorians were warriors. Conquerers. The latter ones were mercs and bounty hunters. Different weaponry, different needs.
Revan wasting Mace ? Sorry...this will never happen.
This is the most arrogant statement yet. This I fully disagree with, on the grounds it was presented and on the way you just "pfft... not gonna happen"- spouted it off like fact and left it unexplained. If you think this is so, explain to us why. In detail. You've just rendered judgment in absolutes !
We do know that neither Vrook nor Kavar did practice Makashi. So form wise they would be inferior to Dooku. Both don't know Vaapad so they would be confronted with something they had never seen before.
Considering Kreia knew all of the lightsaber forms well, and considering that the KOTOR era jedi masters were more active in Sith wars than their PT comrades, it would be baseless to assume that they knew nothing of Makashi (something very neccessary in their lives) and that Vaapad is so alien that they couldn't comprehend it. Note that on another thread you argued that Yoda, Dooku, and Mace could learn and avoid being slaughtered quickly by Kun's unorthodox, unreplicated style because it relies on basics. Now you're saying that Vaapad is something they've never seen before (like that's the deciding factor in your absolute argument) despite your earlier claim.
Since Yoda is said to be the most powerful Jedi ever (and most likely he really is) with Mace being a close second and Dooku in the same league how should Kavar and Vrook be a match for Mace and Dooku ?
This is character bias, subjective material, and no basis whatsoever. The quote that says Yoda is (perhaps) the most powerful jedi ever was from viola! Wikipedia! Congrats! And if Yoda was the best jedi ever, and Sidious could hold ground with him, the jedi must -really- be beneath the ancient sith in fighting powers. This would hand the battle of Dooku, Mace, and Yoda versus Kun right into Kun's hands, since Yoda is the best they have to offer and he is almost equal with Sidious!
Hell...Mace obliterated hundrets of super battle droids with HIS BARE HANDS ! I don't think Vrook and Kavar would be able to do that.
This is CW cartoon stuff, which you said was A) all watched and approved by GL and B) the makers didn't know squat about GG so they made him overpowered.
Non sequitor, anyone?