You know what I would REALLY like to see in KotOR III?

A canonical darkside ending. Sure, in KotOR I and II, and even Star Wars: Jedi Knight, you could pick if you wanted to be light or dark... But the only "official" story, of the Star Wars universe, was the canonical lightside ending.

I want KotOR III to have a game where the darkside ending is the canonical one - how badass would that be?

Personally, I think KotOR I's ending is much, much better when Revan turns back to the darkside - it's just so perfect. Unfortunatley, that would bring about an end to the Old Republic, and thus make all of the other Star Wars movies and EU not possible.

... hm.

It wouldn't bring an end to the Republic. Wtf makes you think that. DS ending DOES seem to be the canonical one in KOTOR 1.

A.) The lightside ending is the canonical one - check StarWars.com

B.) The entire Republic fleet is destroyed, and the Sith have a huge, evergrowing fleet with which to invade and destroy the Republic with?

You know what I would like to see in KotoR 3?

Less graphics, more depth. No rapes to the computer but a good old fashioned rpg classic.

Not for everyone and thier mother to be profficent with The Force.

Less obviousnessness to the dark/lightside, cause even in KotoR2 I was like a friggin brightlight with The Force..

So Lucas did take a stand on KOTOR, eh? I wonder if he told Bioware and Obsidian?

Nop...

Bioware used to claim the Dark Side was the ending they liked more... I don't remember if they really said it was the official ending, I believe they did but i'm not quite sure and I couldn't give you a link even if I was. Still i'm pretty sure Lucas is acting alone on this.

KOTOR's graphics are already loking very clunky. Some better programming might help but it will be roundly whopped if it does not keep up.

I agree too many people are force proficient in it though.

Personally... I do not like KOTOR's morality system. These split 'turn light or dark' plots just do not work for me; clumsy and arbitrary.

I'd prefer a plotline where you can pick a Light Side or Dark Side story from the start, then everything can be calibrated around that. I hate having some petty actions of mine being used to decide my ultimate morality; Light and Dark Side 'points' simply do not do the job.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
KOTOR's graphics are already loking very clunky. Some better programming might help but it will be roundly whopped if it does not keep up.

I agree too many people are force proficient in it though.

Personally... I do not like KOTOR's morality system. These split 'turn light or dark' plots just do not work for me; clumsy and arbitrary.

I'd prefer a plotline where you can pick a Light Side or Dark Side story from the start, then everything can be calibrated around that. I hate having some petty actions of mine being used to decide my ultimate morality; Light and Dark Side 'points' simply do not do the job.

I agree. The graphics need to be kicked up a notch while still being feasible on any video card in existance.

Too many Force people are force sensitive. (I'd rather play as a gun toting mercenary myself. Or even a pilot ot something. Some kind of fringer.)

And the morality system does suck. It's too straight-forward. If they want to really nail you, they need to pile on the moral dillemmas. You should be forced to have to let one of your own die to save a planet or a group of people, or be forced to let the enemy escape and save a child or let the child die and catch the bad guy, etc. And there should be side quests that -don't- wrap up nicely. People who won't sell out to a good guy, or a hall or guild that only accepts those who have visibly proven to be evil, etc.

There should be more consequences for being good or evil in the SW universe than a change of pigment and your profile pic.

A comment about Bioware's other games in the 'Explain KOTOR' thread reminded me...

If they could make Baldur's Gate plot focussed and yet still have multiplayer, they can damn well do it in KOTOR. BG multiplay networked was one of the best experiences of my gaming life, but KOTOR does not support it.

And as an addition to my comment about the morality system above, this also ties in with my plot point. The KOTOR morality system forces a plot in which you start off dead neutral, meaning we've had one total amnesiac and one semi-amnesiac doing a not-as-good re-hash. It's forcing how the plot works and it should not. If KOTOR III starts off with an ignorant middle-road character AGAIN I shall scream.

BG was a wonderful game, especially in multiplayer, though I liked the environs of Icewind Dale II more.

And knowing your luck, they'll make the main character in KOTOR III T3, meaning you'll start off neutral again!

Make the plot better, and bring Revan, and the original Sith bacxk. Have in all out war, and new worlds.

Actually, new worlds are always a good idea. Some nods to the earlier games are always nice, but in KOTOR III it sometimes felt as if they simply couldn't be arsed to make new stuff.

And just another rant at KOTOR morality...

I note you get bonuses for maxing out either way. Why, exactly, do you do this? Why does that bring you any extra power?

You may try and justify it stylisitically. But actually I think it is a disaster stylisitcally- because if you get bonuses for reaching one end or another, you will get people becoming like that not because they think their choices reflect their personality, but because they want the kick-ass extra bonuses.

It sabotages the whole system. Doing good, especially, should bring no reward other than that... well, you did good. Which is what being a Jedi is about.

Go to Coruscant. No, I see a focus on old Sith planets in the Sith Empire. Like Ziost.

Talking of Coruscant!

Nar Shadda is virtually EMPTY! Like, devoid of life. Having Tatooine sparse is one thing, but if they are going to do city planets, you have to find SOME way to make them look alive.

It is all too sterile on these worlds right now. In the films, the worlds are full of life and character. Some very large attempts must be made to at least try and simulate that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually, new worlds are always a good idea. Some nods to the earlier games are always nice, but in KOTOR III it sometimes felt as if they simply couldn't be arsed to make new stuff.

And just another rant at KOTOR morality...

I note you get bonuses for maxing out either way. Why, exactly, do you do this? Why does that bring you any extra power?

You may try and justify it stylisitically. But actually I think it is a disaster stylisitcally- because if you get bonuses for reaching one end or another, you will get people becoming like that not because they think their choices reflect their personality, but because they want the kick-ass extra bonuses.

It sabotages the whole system. Doing good, especially, should bring no reward other than that... well, you did good. Which is what being a Jedi is about.

Good catch on that one. I didn't even think twice about it. You're right- there shouldn't be any stats bonus for being really good or really bad. I think the system was rather simplified to appease a larger fanbase. I mean, there are blasters in the game which do between 1-4 points of energy damage per shot, but lightsabers do a whopping 6-38+ in some cases. There's a definate learn towards making "teh über jedi" in the game rather than concentrating on the personality or style of your character.

Thinking more and more about it irks me actually.

They should have made larger planets, period. I don't care if it was two discs or five... more -worthwhile- areas, please.

And I'm tired of having nothing to do right before the end of the game. I have all these characters and there's no where to take them but towards the finale.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
They should have made larger planets, period. I don't care if it was two discs or five... more -worthwhile- areas, please.

And I'm tired of having nothing to do right before the end of the game. I have all these characters and there's no where to take them but towards the finale.

Some really good things have been said in here and I agree, especially with the planets. I need new planets and make them look bigger more alive, who cares if it takes more resources. Its going to be worth it, make a perfect game. Don't be afraid to push the limits, I wish Lucas Arts would think like that but they won't... If they can they will make hte game as cheap as possible with as much buyers as possible.

And the extremes of the morality system don't even work. I mean, if you max out Dark Side, and gained your 'evil power bonus', what exactly have you done to justify your posotion as 'as evil as can be'?

Have you committed genocide? Have you spent years seducing someone who truly fell in love with you and then murdered her for a laugh? I don't want to get too far into the imagaination of what greatly evil acts you can conceive of, and Star Wars is more grand-scale than personal- except in Anakin's case- but let's face it, we all get the idea that Maul would kill anyone in a blink of an eye, whilst Palpatine murders millions or more with words and cares not.

In KOTOR? Ok, you probably committed a few murders, but let's face it, you probably got most of your Dark Side points by petty theft, making money, and saying to Kreia "Oooh, I'd kill people if they got in my way. Honest."

Wow, that makes you worse than Hitler and Stalin rolled into one, doesn't it?

And "I give away all my stuff to charity" is just as bad a rationale for making someone 'ultimately' good.

But what do the players care? They just want their Dark Side bonus and to pretend that they have somehow achieved the route of all evil.

It doesn't work!

Yeah, again completely agree... But making a game with real morale choices, with real things that would justify your dark or light side poitns would probably have a to high age rating. I mean the example either you are Janus gave about having to choice between killing a kid and capturing criminals or saving kid and letting criminals go is not going to make people say, oh this is a nice family game.

And ratings seem very important in the US.

Well... I think it can still be done and keep it within a Star Wars setting.

But right now... well, other than what I have outlined above, it has two fatal flaws:

1. Your actions set your morality.

That's obviously wrong- your actions are evidence of your morality, not the thing that sets it. Now, to do this truly would be nearly impossible, but it is VERY clear that in KOTOR that you see a 'good' option and you actually start to think "Right, that will get me Light Side points, so I will/will not do it", and then suddenly this whole area of subtle development has become just another stat chase. I guarantee you people were doing evil acts just to get more Dark Side points, on the idea they would grow more powerful, and it had nothing to do with the character they were playing.

It also seems that if you have become Mr. Perfect Paladin, you can still commit very evil acts. I know the game doesn't have a schizophrenia setting, but I never felt like I was a good guy, just a person with lots of Light Side points who might change his mind at any point. If you are good, or evil, you should be restricted as such.

2. It actually fails to reflect player choice

This is the killer. The morality system is meant to be the idea that your choice determines your character. In this respect... it is wasting its time.

I think less than one tenth of KOTOR players actually followed the plot through as letting the game guide you through to setting your ultimate morality. Nearly everyone who played decided form the atart "I want to play a Jedi" or "I want to play a Sith" or, in some cases, "I don't really want to be a Force user at all." You then chose the actions each time that best fitted your choice.

The choice had already ben made, from the point you started play- heck, probably the point you bought the game, or earlier.

Hence my original point- people should be free to make the character they want; Mercenary or Force user, Jedi or Sith, and the plot should be tweaked accordingly- similar things have been done before (ironically, even by Lucasarts, doing three different versions of Fate of Atlantis that depended on your style of play), and it can't be more effort than putting in the waste-of-time morality conversations they have before.

Then we would have no more neutral amnesiacs or pickpockets playing at Sith Lords.