Originally posted by exanda kane
I can't believe anybody actually gives the Seperatists a chance; I mean you have 100,000 Jango Fett's running around (although I think's it's likely that these Mando's are more dangerous than Jango) and see if your little robots can do anything about it. Even with a 'Hero' line up the CSI will just fail...
Err hey guys- I don't wanna break your thunder but 10,000 was just genralising and making my point...
Originally posted by Tangible God
I've heard of the Dark Reaper, but don't know who he is.
It's an ancient Sith Artifact. Basically a weapon of mass destruction that drains the force from everything (Force Harvester) and thereby destroys life. Dooku used it to devastate a forrest on Kashyyyk.
Back to the topic. In my oppinion the Mandalorians would most likely lose against the Seperatists in a real war because of the following points:
a)
The Seperatists have better technology unless somebody wants to tell me that the technology in the SW universe developes backwards or there was no development for 4,000 years at all. So the Seperatists would have:
- faster ships
- superior firepower
- better technology
- an ancient Sith Weapon that can pretty much destroy the surface of a planet and extinct every lifeform on it (the Dark Reaper / Force Harvester)
b)
I read on multiple times here that the Mandalorians would simply "glass planets". First...they have to reach the orbit of a planet flying throug a fleet that has superior firepower. If they manage that: PT time planets have planetary defenses and that means planetary shields and heavy turbolasers - so "glassing the planet" would pretty likely not happen.
So they have to start some ground assault. Now we have the Seperatists with tanks, Hailfire Droids (those things with the two big wheels fireing rockets), Droidekas (with energy shields that can't be penetrated by blasters), Super Battledroids who can survive some blaster hits and a huge amount of normal battledroids.
Now...they can practically produce infinite amounts of droids where the Mandalorians would have limited resources when it comes down to fighters. And just think of the firepower the droids have.
c)
Notice that the Seperatists would have some quite powerful people on their side: Count Dooku, Durge, Asajj Ventress, Grievous, Sora Bulq... Grievous is said to be a tactical genious and he doesn't seem to care much about civil casualties so he can be as ruthless as the Mandalorians themselves.
Now...what makes you people think the Mandalorians can win against an army that has basically infinite amounts of troops (droids), nearly infinite resources (Banking Clan, Trade Federation, Dooku), planets can be considered to be better defended than anything the Mandalorians have seen so far, fleets with firepower the Mandalorians have never seen before and a super weapon like the Dark Reaper - all that stuff controlled by one of the best tacticians the SW universe has seen since Revan (Grievous), a Sith Lord (Dooku) and a group of Dark Jedi who could cause quite some damage (Asajj, Sora and so on?
That the Seperatists were defeated by 1,2 million clones ? Well...I always thought this number was a mistake but the Seperatists didn't only lose against 1,2 million clones - they lost against 10,000 Jedi (according to the TPM novel that's the number of Jedi Knights there were in TPM times). And that's far more than the Mandalorians have seen in the Mandalorian Wars and I guess 1,2 million clones would also be more than "1/3 of the Republics forces" that Revan had to fight the Mandalorians. And this people have superior firepower compared to Revan's forces.
So...how would the Mandalorians win that war ? In my oppinion they can attack every important Seperatist planet they want but - if they are able to win - they will only have some Pyrhus' victory because of fleets in the orbit, planetary defenses and huge amounts of (droid) ground troops. And in the end they will - at least - lose because running out of troops where the Seperatists can easily produce droids.
You are missing a few important things however.
The Mandelorians also used droids. At least the republic forces did. They had heavy droids to support their attacks so really that would mean that either the Mandelorians know how to deal with droids or hat they have droids of their own to take them out. Its unlikely that the Mandelorians relied only on themselves and did not have any kind of droid like technology to help them with the fighting.
The 1.2 million clones although low seems to be very true. There is nothing you can do about it, you can say the Jedi had 10.000 Jedi which I find unussually high but okay i'll accept it. Still if we look at how the Jedi fought its only one or two Jedi leading a large group if not an army of clones. Unless they had an all Jedi batallion that I never know off it seems very unlikely that all these Jedi actually also fought the droids, the mayority of it was still done by clones under Jedi Command.
So you might have superior numbers, but they managed to heavily hurt the Republic fleet at Malachor, even though they were outnumbered 5 to 1 there, and it was a damn trap. And there were plenty of Jedi at that battle to fight the Mandelorians. So the Mandelorians are clearly skilled warriors, even when facing impossible odds they manage to make an impact. No, these guy knew what they were doing.
Now you have a point with the technologic advantage, when looking at the Mandelorians that fought Revan that is. The initial post chaned that quite a bit but thats not really fair. Still do you think that the defences will hold? The Mandelorians can start a ground attack, what will they care. Fighting is fighting and thats what they want to do now isn't? Its what they are born for. A ground attack might take lives but I don't see why they wouldn't pull it off.
Briliant fighters with heavy weapons that are highly illegal everywhere else. Far superior to the weak lasers the Seperatist use would surely be able to make an impact. Mandelorian repeating rifles for instance will make quite an impact on the incoming droid forces, no doubt about that. Add thermal detonators Basilisk raining down from above and god knows what else, and the Trade Federation numerous as it may be will die on the ground.
In the air its going to be harder for the Mandelorians, but you seem to be under the impression that they are going to face fleets of the Trade Federation in straight combat. They won't, not when they find out the Seperatist are to powerful for them. They will find ways around it. I mean afterall just one fighter managed to take out a droid control ship. Okay so that fighter was controlled by a force sensitive, but the Mandelorians are damn good warriors. They are born to fight i'm pretty sure they will find out something that they can do against the Trade Federation. Which I might add is mostly controlled by idiots, except for perhaps the part GG controls.
Now on the Dark Jedi, your big point being? Dooku is the only challenge there, but the Mandelorians killed god knows how many Jedi in the Mandelorian wars. A battlefield is no place for a Jedi. And there is always the chance that they will be burried under the fire of the Mandelorian warriors. So what if they take a 100 Mandelorians with them as long as they die.
The Mandelorians are going to have a hard time i'm sure of it, but as long as they avoid going head on with the seperatist space forces they will be fine.
Originally posted by Fishy
The 1.2 million clones although low seems to be very true. There is nothing you can do about it, you can say the Jedi had 10.000 Jedi which I find unussually high but okay i'll accept it. Still if we look at how the Jedi fought its only one or two Jedi leading a large group if not an army of clones. Unless they had an all Jedi batallion that I never know off it seems very unlikely that all these Jedi actually also fought the droids, the mayority of it was still done by clones under Jedi Command.
1.2 million clones seems to be very true ? It's said that 1,000 capital ships of the Republic (note 6,000 clones on each needed - crew, starfighter pilots, ground troops) participated in the Battle of Coruscant. Now in LoE it's said that half of the clones were already killed. Can you tell me how they are going to operate capital ships with 1/10 of the crew that is needed and still have starfighter pilots to participate in the fight AND complete units of clones ready to attack Kashyyyk / Utapau and so on ?
And who did most of the work ? The clones ? Watch the Clone War Cartoons or read the EU literature: The Jedi are doing the "important" work almost on their own.
So you might have superior numbers, but they managed to heavily hurt the Republic fleet at Malachor, even though they were outnumbered 5 to 1 there, and it was a damn trap. And there were plenty of Jedi at that battle to fight the Mandelorians. So the Mandelorians are clearly skilled warriors, even when facing impossible odds they manage to make an impact. No, these guy knew what they were doing.
Of course they knew what they were doing but they will get horribly outnumbered on every important Seperatist planet.
Now you have a point with the technologic advantage, when looking at the Mandelorians that fought Revan that is. The initial post chaned that quite a bit but thats not really fair. Still do you think that the defences will hold? The Mandelorians can start a ground attack, what will they care. Fighting is fighting and thats what they want to do now isn't? Its what they are born for. A ground attack might take lives but I don't see why they wouldn't pull it off.Briliant fighters with heavy weapons that are highly illegal everywhere else. Far superior to the weak lasers the Seperatist use would surely be able to make an impact. Mandelorian repeating rifles for instance will make quite an impact on the incoming droid forces, no doubt about that. Add thermal detonators Basilisk raining down from above and god knows what else, and the Trade Federation numerous as it may be will die on the ground.
In the air its going to be harder for the Mandelorians, but you seem to be under the impression that they are going to face fleets of the Trade Federation in straight combat. They won't, not when they find out the Seperatist are to powerful for them. They will find ways around it. I mean afterall just one fighter managed to take out a droid control ship. Okay so that fighter was controlled by a force sensitive, but the Mandelorians are damn good warriors. They are born to fight i'm pretty sure they will find out something that they can do against the Trade Federation. Which I might add is mostly controlled by idiots, except for perhaps the part GG controls.
Well...just to show you what I imagine those attacks look like. The important systems of the seperatists would have quite some ships around them (imagine something like the blockade over Naboo). Now some of those ships are twice as big than the biggest ships the Republic had in KotoR times (the Leviathan).
Considering firepower just look at the Sith attack on Taris. The hangar with the Ebon Hawk takes serveral direkt hits from the Leviathan and still is intact while the turbolasers in ESB are able to blow up asteroids with single hits.
So the Mandalorians have to fight through that fleets (capital ships and huge numbers of droid starfighters / vulture droids). They will lose pretty much people there. When they have gone past that fleet they encounter planetary defences (planetary shields, turbolasers) that will again costs some lives.
Then you have a ground battle and while the Mandalorians are pretty good fighters they will get horribly outnumbered and the Seperatists still have tanks, seismic tanks (Battle of Dantooine), hailfire droids, heavy weapons (seen on Geonosis) and even artilary (Battle of Muunilinst).
I don't doubt that the Mandalorians are able to take some of those planets but I doubt that they can overcome an alliance of the most important commercial engines of the Galaxy (and that's what the CIS was): The Corporate Alliance, the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, the Intergalactic Banking Clan and the Commerce Guild.
The Mandelorians are going to have a hard time i'm sure of it, but as long as they avoid going head on with the seperatist space forces they will be fine.
See...I simply doubt that they can avoid going head on with the seperatist space forces and even if they can do that to a certain degree they would have to conquer dozens of planets and I doubt they would manage to do that if the CIS is going to use things like the seismic tank or the Dark Reaper because you need Jedi to deal with stuff like that.
I'm imaging this war really different hit and run attacks, technology isn't everything,. The Mandelorians are just smarter fighters and better generals if you ask me. Devide the Separatist forces take out the weak and isolated parts with heavy forces. Don't give them a chance to retaliate and then run again. The Mandelorians would have to fight smart here.
Bomb an entire planet to the ground make it seem like they are there, leave before the Separatist fleet arrives and attack what the Separatist were defending. You know shit like that, guerrilla warfare.
btw: The movies and I think even LOE state that there were only 1.2 million clones... I know the number sucks and is really unrealistic but hey its what GL said.
AGreed, that is the number, no matter how ridiculous. And keep in mind that it's never exactly stated that everyone in Clone trooper armor was neccessarily a clone trooper by the end of the war. 1.2 million troops is the accepted figure and the next batch wouldn't be ready for something like five years. In any case, the number of clones was small, and yet they (Combined with local armies, conscripts... yes, there were conscripts- read the MedStar series and perhaps one jedi leading an army group or two.) managed to win a battle against the Separatists. However, this was due to an overwhelming naval advantage. The Separatist has drone starfighters and heavy Trade Federation ships refitted to serve as battle ships... Meanwhile, the Republic is hauling ships the size of the INvisible Hand or larger. In any instance where the Republic was able to converge a signifcant portion of its navy to a sector, the Separatists lost it.
And the Separatist Army's greatest weakness lies in its homebases. Geonisia was taken before the war had really begun. By the time of LOE, Neimoidia was taken. The Separatists were fleeing to Mustafar because they had nowhere to go. See, the problem with the Separatist army lies in their needing home bases; they need foundations for their droid army, for upkeep, for manufacturing... In reality, droid troopers are a logistical nightmare. The army used in the clone wars was built up over a few decades, as stated in The Cloak of Deception. Built up during peace time, when optimal manufacturing is availible. During war, with embargos, destroyed planets, blockaded trade routes and vulnerable home bases, they were put on the defensive.
Yes, Grievious attacked Coruscant, but let's face it: any ship can hyperdrive jump from most points of the galaxy and end up in the skies above Coruscant. With the invention of the hyperdrive comes a new dynamic to warfare, and it's the ability to strike fast and strike anywhere. Planet hopping isn't a viable strategy; destroying home bases is however. The Mandalorians can maintain bases anywhere, and have shown exceptional ability in reading tactics (They conquered the Outer Rim for the most part before the Republic would react and continued to wage hell when the Republic AND the Jedi joined in) and have never shown superior numbers to be a hinderance.
As for technology being vastly inferior, I'd like to point out that there isn't sufficient proof that the Separatists had superior firepower. On the Invisible Hand, we see shell-loaded canons that do relatively small amounts of damage to a ship. This is a far cry from the Executer (The largest ship in the Imperial fleet with some of the largest turbolasers in the series) destroying asteroids roughly the size of or slightly bigger than the Millenium Falcon. For those of you interested in the Falcon's size versus a normal human, watch ANH again. If you're going to make a big issue of the technology base, you'll need to show where the Mandalorians had inferior technology (Directly) and likewise how the Separatists have superior firepower enough to swing the fight (With sources other than the Executer.)