Apocalypse vs. MR. Sinister

Originally posted by leonidas
how exactly does apoc take sinister out? sinister has sh!t stomped the xmen/xfactor as easily as apoc has, he's stood toe-to-toe with goblyn queen maddie, his psionics were enough to impress exodus. he's amped himself with dna from loads of mutants so essentially he's a walking amalgam.

BOTH have low showings, but BOTH have very high ones as well. at their respective bests, i think this is far closer than most are saying.

6/10 apoc. maybe.

Come on man. Don't be ridiculous. Is that why Sinister trembles when he sees Apocalypse. He is pretty much, always was, afraid of Apocalypse.
That is why he was always doing behind his back to destroy him and if he would be powerful enough, he would go into battle in toe to toe and took him out himself. But he knows Apocalypse would remove him from existence.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Apocalypse made Sinister and gave him his powers. That's why I give Apoc the edge. He knows how to remove them, IMO.

And is also far more powerful.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Come on man. Don't be ridiculous. Is that why Sinister trembles when he sees Apocalypse. He is pretty much, always was, afraid of Apocalypse.
That is why he was always doing behind his back to destroy him and if he would be powerful enough, he would go into battle in toe to toe and took him out himself. But he knows Apocalypse would remove him from existence.

And is also far more powerful.

yeah, i keep hearing an awful lot of 'apoc is more powerful.' cept, i've not seen the scans to prove it. based on powersets, there is no reason sinister can't match apoc in terms of power. if trick is right, and apoc can remove his power, then certainly he wins. sinister's powers are inconsistent, apoc has loads of low showings and some high ones. sinsiter has the powers of a dozen xmen when done correctly. both have crushed the xmen in battle.

i fail to see how this is anything but close. scans please, and stop with the 'c'mon, obviously apoc is more powerful . . .' nonsense.

show, don't tell.

think of it as darkseid > desaad.

remember, apocalypse's modus operandi stops him from killing sinister, he created him after all for a purpose, make more mutants/destroy humanity.

moses magnum, the dark riders, exodus, mr.sinister, etc all parts of the big plan.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i keep hearing an awful lot of 'apoc is more powerful.' cept, i've not seen the scans to prove it. based on powersets, there is no reason sinister can't match apoc in terms of power. if trick is right, and apoc can remove his power, then certainly he wins. sinister's powers are inconsistent, apoc has loads of low showings and some high ones. sinsiter has the powers of a dozen xmen when done correctly. both have crushed the xmen in battle.

i fail to see how this is anything but close. scans please, and stop with the 'c'mon, obviously apoc is more powerful . . .' nonsense.

show, don't tell.

So you think Apocalypse created someone as powerful as himself? Sinister was always shown to be afraid of Apocalypse. Why do you think he never attacked him himself, but was doing behind his back in his words ''ultimate mutant'' to defeat Apocalypse. Sinister thought he needs ultimate mutant to kill Apocalypse.

Come on, Sinister cannot close match Apocalypse raw power. To show you scans about Apocalypse obviously being more powerful. Apocalypse fought and shown to be in their league when faced PE Ikaris, High Evolutionary, Loki man. Enough said.

Look how powerful was Moses Magnum, but wasn't something to Apocalypse.

Don't be funny.

apoc can grow to over 100 feet tall and step on Sinister....Sinister cannot

Originally posted by Xplosive
So you think Apocalypse created someone as powerful as himself? Sinister was always shown to be afraid of Apocalypse. Why do you think he never attacked him himself, but was doing behind his back in his words ''ultimate mutant'' to defeat Apocalypse. Sinister thought he needs ultimate mutant to kill Apocalypse.

Come on, Sinister cannot close match Apocalypse raw power. To show you scans about Apocalypse obviously being more powerful. Apocalypse fought and shown to be in their league when faced PE Ikaris, High Evolutionary, Loki man. Enough said.

Look how powerful was Moses Magnum, but wasn't something to Apocalypse.

Don't be funny.

i've seen him battle both ikaris and the HE. i also said apoc would win the majority, so in the big picture we agree. however, since the time of his creation, sinister has gotten MORE powerful. again, he's an amalgamation of a LOT of powerful mutants. imo going 1on1 with goblyn queen is comparable to going 1on1 with HE or ikaris.

all's i'm saying is that there is more to it than 'apoc made him so he wins'. sinister>then when he was first made. ignoring that apoc made him, looking at just feats and showings, this is far closer than most are willing to admit

oh, and tough to step on sinister when he can teleport . . .

I would think Apocalypse.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've seen him battle both ikaris and the HE. i also said apoc would win the majority, so in the big picture we agree. however, since the time of his creation, sinister has gotten MORE powerful. again, he's an amalgamation of a LOT of powerful mutants. imo going 1on1 with goblyn queen is comparable to going 1on1 with HE or ikaris.

all's i'm saying is that there is more to it than 'apoc made him so he wins'. sinister>then when he was first made. ignoring that apoc made him, looking at just feats and showings, this is far closer than most are willing to admit

oh, and tough to step on sinister when he can teleport . . .

He had prep and one of his bases for Maddie. That's not a showing for him personally, it's a showing for his tech and prep.

1 week is not enough time for him to get that kind of base together, and if he does that, Apoc can bring a celestial ship anyway.

The reason we're bringing up the Apoc made him thing, is that Apoc always puts failsafes into his horsemen and minions. Moses Magnum, The Harbinger, his own descendants even.

They can both teleport. 😛

Ignoring that Apoc probably has an instant kill set up for him and that his tech is much much better, it's a decent fight. Apoc would indeed have to work for it. But Apocalypse's tech is vastly superior to what Sinister has. So the prep match goes to him. And Sinister has only once made something that could beat Apocalypse, Nate Grey. Every other time he prepped, he failed. 😈

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
it's a decent fight.

I don't think it would be decent fight. It's a mismatch to the core.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He had prep and one of his bases for Maddie. That's not a showing for him personally, it's a showing for his tech and prep.

1 week is not enough time for him to get that kind of base together, and if he does that, Apoc can bring a celestial ship anyway.

The reason we're bringing up the Apoc made him thing, is that Apoc always puts failsafes into his horsemen and minions. Moses Magnum, The Harbinger, his own descendants even.

They can both teleport. 😛

Ignoring that Apoc probably has an instant kill set up for him and that his tech is much much better, it's a decent fight. Apoc would indeed have to work for it. But Apocalypse's tech is vastly superior to what Sinister has. So the prep match goes to him. And Sinister has only once made something that could beat Apocalypse, Nate Grey. Every other time he prepped, he failed. 😈

actually i think you're wrong about the prep he had for maddie. he was shocked at her power if i remember correctly, and his prep failed in her case as she busted out of the chains he had her in. another case of someone equalling or excelling the being that created them . . . 😖hifty:

you may well be right about the insta-death thing, but there is no evidence to suggest it afaik so it can't really be claimed in this case, trick.

anyway, i think we agree more than we disagree. i also think it would be a close match, but i think in overall power apoc does him him by a little bit. but as you said -- he'd have to work for it and i could see sinister taking some from him.

Originally posted by illadelph12
My votes for Sinister based solely on the fact that he has a week of prep and knows Apocalypse's weaknesses like the back of his hand. He has already bio-engineered the instrument of Apocalypse's destruction before, and more than likely could clone another (or a few) Cable/Stryfe/X-Man in a week through accelerated cloning techniques.

Or he could simply create a machine that attacks Apocalypse's molecular cohesion at the atomic level.

Knowledge is truly power.

Only catch is Apoc could use the week of prep beefing up his defenses and removing his molecular cohesion weakness, which would effectively leave him invincible to any type of physical/energy/matter manipulation attacks, and leave him slightly vulnerable to psionics.

No prep, I see Apoc seriously crushing Sinister head up.

I stand by what I said 2 and a half years ago. Sinister already has the genetic templates for Nate Grey and Madeline Pryor at his disposal, as well as the ability to mass produce clones of all of his Marauders when necessary. In a week given what Sinister already has on hand he could amass an army with beings he doesn't need to create from scratch. He could incubate a platoon of Nate Greys in a week. I'm an Apocalypse supporter (as many know) and I don't think it will be a curbstomp on Sinister's side, but moreso the issue is that though Apoc has the week of prep as well, Sinister can generate a numbers and abilities advantage with his own resources. I've yet to see Apocalypse genetically engineer en masse like I have Sinister, and a lot of his grandiose plans involev other people being manipulated to meet his ends. In a head up battle Apocalypse would crush Sinister easily. However, after a week, Sinister could have produced about 30 Nate Greys and Madeline Pryors to help him, and hundreds of Marauders. Apocalypse doesn't usually create his help from scratch, he modifies previously existing characters and subjugates them to his will, so given the stipulations of this battle I don't think Apocalypse would be able to enlist the outside help of others and would have to create additional help, something I haven't seen him do. That's the only edge I see Sinister having. It's not a matter of Sinister being more powerful than Apoc, it's a matter of Sinister already having in place resources to utilize during the week.

No prep and Apocalypse all day.

With prep things get cloudy due to what Sinister already has on hand.

.

Apoc >>> Sinister. But I love Sinister tho.

i REALLY don't get why everyone keeps saying apoc>>>sinister. based on feats (both high and low) he most certainly is not. ❌

I have no justification for my argument in this thread other than...

Sinister <<< Apocalypse.

Originally posted by leonidas
why not?

Because he has spent over a life time trying and failed every time.

What's he going do in 10 minutes?

Sinister himself even stated that he wouldn't survive Apocalypse's wrath or something like that.

Originally posted by cyberborg84
If you want to get technical he has, indirectly, via the creation of Cable by manipulating Madelyn Pryor and Cyclops into getting together. Bear in mind, it was Cable who managed to finally kill Apoc, albiet with help. So in the long term, you could say Sinister had suceeded in the end.

Well, until Cable resurrected Nur later.

Apocalypse regenerated on his own pretty much, but I suppose Cable helped him.

It's not like Sinister will be able to call upon help from Cable this time anyways and Cable had help from Jean.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i keep hearing an awful lot of 'apoc is more powerful.' cept, i've not seen the scans to prove it. based on powersets, there is no reason sinister can't match apoc in terms of power. if trick is right, and apoc can remove his power, then certainly he wins.

Originally posted by leonidas
i fail to see how this is anything but close. scans please, and stop with the 'c'mon, obviously apoc is more powerful . . .' nonsense.

show, don't tell.

Originally posted by leonidas
sinsiter has the powers of a dozen xmen when done correctly. both have crushed the xmen in battle

Apocalypse has actually fought some herald level people.

As for Madelyne Pryor, Sinister used tech to defeat her.

Originally posted by leonidas
apoc has loads of low showings.

No, not really.

Originally posted by leonidas
i REALLY don't get why everyone keeps saying apoc>>>sinister. based on feats (both high and low) he most certainly is not. ❌

Old friend, simplicity is the KMC way.

Originally posted by Bad Ash231

you see, now i can respect that. i still think based on powersets and feats, this would be closer than everyone seems to believe, but finally someone has shown me something that supports what was being said. well done.

Apocalypse has actually fought some herald level people.

so have loads of people.

As for Madelyne Pryor, Sinister used tech to defeat her.

nah. he used some defensive tech in his hide out to hold her. he did briefly face off against her and before the final battle could be fought she left. in the same regard, apoc needed to use tech to try and battle loki. again, feat-wise, there is little evidence at all to suggest apoc wins this in a route. your scan seems to suggest sinister DOES fear him though. one thing -- how long in the past was that scene set? like i said, mr s has GROWN in power over time, splicing dna from various mutants into his own. he is likely a lot more powerful currently, than he was back then . . .

No, not really.

all righty then. 😉

Originally posted by illadelph12
Old friend, simplicity is the KMC way.

😂

tru dat. i have no problem being swayed. i have no real vested interest in either character. based on what i've seen of both though, it appears their relative power levels are at least reasonably close.

the scan above does shift my opinion though. if mr s is afraid of him, it must be for a reason. though i do wonder if that reason isn't simply a father's fear of a son. my 'theories' are just that though, in the face of the above scan, so i relent.

at least until such time comes where they DO battle, and it's hella closer than everyone thinks. 😉