Originally posted by Wynndar
The Thing comment didnt bother me at all...Thing would only be a distraction to Apoc but still a very effective one.Apoc is nothing "new" to the F4, remember they were the first heroes to encounter him when they went to ancient Egypt and fought Rama-Tut(Kang).
The F4 have beaten Celestials on at least three occasions I can think of. I doubt Apoc's Celestial tech and enhanced physiology would dumbfound Mister Fantastic. He could, if he hasnt already, find a method to shut down his physiology. Reed isnt like his dad Nathaniel who keeps more tech/weapons/gadgets on him than Doom...but he does hide more stuff on him than u think...his costume itself is a functioning supercomputer and linked to the resources of his lab. He could theoretically interface with Apoc's own cyber integrated physiology.
Torch has two options against him, fight him straight up with a focused nova blast that would vaporize anything material into sub atomic particles...Apoc's powers are based on his molecular structure...destroy his atoms and thus destroy his molecular structure where the information of his powers are stored genetically; he could also absorb the ambient heat energy away from him...even if Apoc is highly resistent to cold, his shape shifting and chemical reactions will be limited or halted (did this to Graviton when he beat him...IMO Graviton>Apoc). Additionally, if Torch's focused Nova blast has shot through the Earth, heated its core and caused the planet to expand, I think that attack would at least phase Apoc if not wipe him from the Earth.
Invisible Woman can make some offense against Apoc...even if she physically damages Apoc's body with her field, he can always shunt more matter to his body from his extradimnsional source. She could however seperate his body apart and see where the source is, then limit that source to a finite volume. Although it requires a lot of concentration, IW's hyperspace resonation technique is destructive to even Celestial armor...conveniently, Apoc's physiology is based on Celestial tech...she also used it against Hyperstorm's planet conquering army of "Indestructable" Juggernauts. Finally, Apoc relies on sensor's and although he considers himself above most earthly beings, he is still limited to the same concepts of physical perception...So making his body or sensory organs invisible or removing his perception of the EM spectrum, Apoc would have to rely on his telepathic and astral senses, making it harder for him to make an offense.
Trying to physically knock or push Apoc out of the fight environment is useless considering he is one of the best teleporters around...below Genis-Vel, Lockjaw, and Pip but above Nightcralwer and Gateway.
Those are the options I think the F4 have against him...most people assume the F4 r just going to try to punch him and hit him with invisible spheres and fireballs 馃槅
nice! i'd forgotten that bit with sue and the celestials. you make a great case, wyn. i've never been very comfortable with apoc and his powers (never being a very big x-fan) -- his powers always seem to fluctuate. i think your scenarios are plausible though.
apoc (that bastich!) goes down!!
馃槃
I dont think whether the source of those powers are mutant or celestial is of consequence. I think IW can use her field to limit the volume he occupies...essentially no longer making his "growing" powers a factor. This isnt really a huge deciding factor though. BTW before Apoc was exposed to the Celestial energies he didnt demonstrate extradimensional mass. He was shown fighting the Egyptians and Macedonians with his bare hands...just a big ass indestructable guy.
Good info Wynndar.
Inconsequential though.
The Fantastic Four's battle feats, in the comics, are impressive, but they are all given to plot devices and scripts. In a non-sanctioned confrontation without the villains doing exactly what a writer portrays them to do, and using the full array of the powers in their arsenals, the F4 would not take beings like Galactus, Exitar, or Annihilus. In their own storyline where they are the protagonist, of course they'll always overcome the odds, but here on the forum, where all characters involved are going all out, that's not the case. A heroes' storyline best case scenario is not the be all and end of of the outcomes.
Here, a Greek Tragedy is more times the norm.
Here's the other side of the possible battle scenarios:
Apocalypse can augment his strength, density, mass, size, substance, function, maleability, and teleport.
Apocalypse can teleport in, engage an advesary, and teleport away with said advesary/team member, and take them out one by one if he deems it necessary.
For instance, he could teleport in, grab Thing, teleport away with him and leave him somewhere away from the conflict to be dealt with at a later time, given that Ben can't fly and doesn't posess super speed, then teleport back to confront Johnny, Sue, and Reed.
Being that none of the F4 are telepaths, it's going to be very hard to pinpoint where Apoc is coming from if he uses his teleportation abilities to maximum effect (which is a possibility).
He could take a frontal assault on the remaining three and be bombarded with invisifields and plasma, or he could play it smart and use his advantages against them, which are speed, strength, and the ability to teleport.
He could increase his density and teleport to Torch, grasp him, teleport to another position out of Sue and Reeds line of sight, and snap his neck (Johnny doesn't have super strong physical characteristics, but his flame powers are potent). He wouldn't have to be exposed to Johnny's heat for to long to do that, so the chances of Torch instantly incinerating Apocalypse, who can control his atomic structure and density and and can morph into a more fire retardent substance or atomic structure, is very unlikely. It only takes a moment for Apoc to exert enough force to snap a human neck.
To handle Sue and Reed, Apoc needs to constantly keep moving so Sue can't pinpoint his location and hit him with a construct, form a bubble within him (though even if she did, he can become intangible or highly maleable, and simply move his mass so the bubble exits his person, or he can teleport away), or render a part of his being, like his eyes, invisible. Moreso, these abilities require concentration and calcualtion on Sue's part, so Apoc moving randomly and striking would greatly hinder her efforts to strike a critical attack. Sue would more than likely be the last F4 member to fall though.
Next order of business would be to separate Reed from Sue via teleportation, but more than likely at this point in a conflict, after seeing Ben and Johnny fall via teleportation, Reed and Sue are behind an invisifield and protecting themselves. Apoc could take this time to teleport away and pay Grimm a visit, beating the stone off his hide, morphing his hand into a plasma cannon and blasting him, or simply teleporting in, sticking his hand in Thing's mouth, and expanding it until Thing's skull ruptures. Whatever he feels like doing.
By this time it would be the Fantastic 2 Vs. Apoc.
I'm not going to go on and script the rest of a possible battle (possible, this is not the only possible outcome. There are countless scenarios going both ways), because I don't feel I need to, I just wanted to illustrate that here on the forum, though it's nice to recount feats, the scenarios here are abilities versus abilities, not storybook scripted feats versus story book scripted feats. Villains more than usually get the short end of the feats stick because even if they are more powerful than their foe, the role of the villain is to be a jobber for the hero.
Simply saying "Well, in the comics, the Fantastic 4 took down at least 3 Cellestials, and have beaten Galactus and other cosmic threats" doesn't take into account that the portrayed Cellestials in those battles were not fighting to the fullness of their abilities given their powers. Exitar wasn't constantly teleporting around firing concussive force and energy blasts and transmuting matter while moving at light speed, and Galactus didn't mind rape the Fantastic 4 from orbit using his vast psionic abilities, or simply transmute their energy and matter and consume them. They did what they were scripted to do to make the story intriguing.
Both sides going all out, and with no plot devices, in my opinion, Apocalypse is just to versatile for the Fantastic 4 to take down, just as I think without plot devices and a script, Galactus would have quickly, and without reservations, crushed the Fantastic 4 within 2 minutes. Not to say that Apoc is in Galactus's league (by no means is he, at least not so far as he's been written), just that the outcomes here on the forum are not storyline driven.
in other words it's not a question of if Apocalypse could win it's a question of what methods/powers he could use....like illadelph12 said this isn't a battle of storylines it's a battle of the characters...how Apocalypse has faired in the past or against other characters has nothing to do with the outcome of this fight... so all you " apocalypse lost to this guy or that group" is of no consequence..bad guys lose..it happens..but Apocalypse never goes down without a fight and is always ready to plan after a defeat.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Good info Wynndar.Inconsequential though.
The Fantastic Four's battle feats, in the comics, are impressive, but they are all given to plot devices and scripts. In a non-sanctioned confrontation without the villains doing exactly what a writer portrays them to do, and using the full array of the powers in their arsenals, the F4 would not take beings like Galactus, Exitar, or Annihilus. In their own storyline where they are the protagonist, of course they'll always overcome the odds, but here on the forum, where all characters involved are going all out, that's not the case. A heroes' storyline best case scenario is not the be all and end of of the outcomes.
Here, a Greek Tragedy is more times the norm.
Here's the other side of the possible battle scenarios:
Apocalypse can augment his strength, density, mass, size, substance, function, maleability, and teleport.
Apocalypse can teleport in, engage an advesary, and teleport away with said advesary/team member, and take them out one by one if he deems it necessary.
For instance, he could teleport in, grab Thing, teleport away with him and leave him somewhere away from the conflict to be dealt with at a later time, given that Ben can't fly and doesn't posess super speed, then teleport back to confront Johnny, Sue, and Reed.
Being that none of the F4 are telepaths, it's going to be very hard to pinpoint where Apoc is coming from if he uses his teleportation abilities to maximum effect (which is a possibility).
He could take a frontal assault on the remaining three and be bombarded with invisifields and plasma, or he could play it smart and use his advantages against them, which are speed, strength, and the ability to teleport.
He could increase his density and teleport to Torch, grasp him, teleport to another position out of Sue and Reeds line of sight, and snap his neck (Johnny doesn't have super strong physical characteristics, but his flame powers are potent). He wouldn't have to be exposed to Johnny's heat for to long to do that, so the chances of Torch instantly incinerating Apocalypse, who can control his atomic structure and density and and can morph into a more fire retardent substance or atomic structure, is very unlikely. It only takes a moment for Apoc to exert enough force to snap a human neck.
To handle Sue and Reed, Apoc needs to constantly keep moving so Sue can't pinpoint his location and hit him with a construct, form a bubble within him (though even if she did, he can become intangible or highly maleable, and simply move his mass so the bubble exits his person, or he can teleport away), or render a part of his being, like his eyes, invisible. Moreso, these abilities require concentration and calcualtion on Sue's part, so Apoc moving randomly and striking would greatly hinder her efforts to strike a critical attack. Sue would more than likely be the last F4 member to fall though.
Next order of business would be to separate Reed from Sue via teleportation, but more than likely at this point in a conflict, after seeing Ben and Johnny fall via teleportation, Reed and Sue are behind an invisifield and protecting themselves. Apoc could take this time to teleport away and pay Grimm a visit, beating the stone off his hide, morphing his hand into a plasma cannon and blasting him, or simply teleporting in, sticking his hand in Thing's mouth, and expanding it until Thing's skull ruptures. Whatever he feels like doing.
By this time it would be the Fantastic 2 Vs. Apoc.
I'm not going to go on and script the rest of a possible battle ([B]possible
, this is not the only possible outcome. There are countless scenarios going both ways), because I don't feel I need to, I just wanted to illustrate that here on the forum, though it's nice to recount feats, the scenarios here are abilities versus abilities, not storybook scripted feats versus story book scripted feats. Villains more than usually get the short end of the feats stick because even if they are more powerful than their foe, the role of the villain is to be a jobber for the hero.Simply saying "Well, in the comics, the Fantastic 4 took down at least 3 Cellestials, and have beaten Galactus and other cosmic threats" doesn't take into account that the portrayed Cellestials in those battles were not fighting to the fullness of their abilities given their powers. Exitar wasn't constantly teleporting around firing concussive force and energy blasts and transmuting matter while moving at light speed, and Galactus didn't mind rape the Fantastic 4 from orbit using his vast psionic abilities, or simply transmute their energy and matter and consume them. They did what they were scripted to do to make the story intriguing.
Both sides going all out, and with no plot devices, in my opinion, Apocalypse is just to versatile for the Fantastic 4 to take down, just as I think without plot devices and a script, Galactus would have quickly, and without reservations, crushed the Fantastic 4 within 2 minutes. Not to say that Apoc is in Galactus's league (by no means is he, at least not so far as he's been written), just that the outcomes here on the forum are not storyline driven. [/B]
Thanks for the compliment. I dont get those often when defending the F4.
I think I've conceded that most of the F4's enemies beat them on paper...and that its irrelevent to use their beating one super power in support of them beating another.
However, this wasnt why I mentioned the Celestials...I mentioned the celestials because I was pointing out a) Apoc's technology isnt new to Mr Fantastic; and b) Sue's hyperspace manipulation has been show to destroy the materials celestials are made of...which suggest Apoc's physiology that was chenged by the celestial energies may also be destroyed this way. I never implied that her destroying Exitar means she can beat apoc...like u pointed out, they would be totally different kinds of fights.
I think your depiction of Apoc fighting the F4 kind read like a bad horror movie plot. The F4 wouldnt stand around and wait for Apoc to hurt them. I doubt he could grab and teleport either HT or Grimm. Torch flies faster than he does...and Thing has some of the best fighting skill for any heavyweight. While Apoc's fighting skill is ranked at about a one or 2. A depiction of him operating like an assasin taking out the F4 one by one is kinda idealistic.
Finally, the only time u mentioned him dealing with or countering any offense of the F4 was the Human Torch's base level flame..u also mentioned plasma and invisble objects now that i think of it. U didnt mention a counter to any of the offenses I suggested from the F4 either...which in my opinion would leave him helpless. The F4 could simply go invisble...that would throw him off...then if they hit him with a full assualt he would be unable to recover.
Not that I'm going to get involved in this debate (I swear, Wyndar, I'm not stalking you, hahaha), but I think Wyndar's plot does make a lot of sense. Then again, so does Ills.
I think it comes down to, all things considered, who has more ways of winning more often. While I accept Wyndar's plan for how the FF can beat Apoc, I'd contend that there are probably more ways for Apoc to win - in the hypothetical ten fight series.
Originally posted by demigawd
Not that I'm going to get involved in this debate (I swear, Wyndar, I'm not stalking you, hahaha), but I think Wyndar's plot does make a lot of sense. Then again, so does Ills.I think it comes down to, all things considered, who has more ways of winning more often. While I accept Wyndar's plan for how the FF can beat Apoc, I'd contend that there are probably more ways for Apoc to win - in the hypothetical ten fight series.
Exactly my point.
Believe me, there are ways for Apocalypse to lose. It's only logical to concede that.
I simply see more ways, all abilities on the table, for Apocalypse to win, considering all he brings to that table.
Doesn't take anything away from the Fantastic 4 at all.
Also, I don't put much solice in those "fighting skill" ratings. I think Galactus is a 2 in fighting skills, and Punisher (my favorite character) is a 6 or 7.
Does that mean if they fist fight, Punisher wins?
Apoc has stellar h2h skills, as was shown in his origin story, he is a highly skilled warrior, he just tends not to be portrayed to use those skills because of the way he's written to lurk ominously in the shadows and let his jabroni cronies get their hands dirty carrying out his plans while he laughs at the "pathetic fools" that are going to thwart his plans in the next couple of books in the story arc. Hell, sometimes in the next panel.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Exactly my point.Believe me, there are ways for Apocalypse to lose. It's only logical to concede that.
I simply see more ways, all abilities on the table, for Apocalypse to win, considering all he brings to that table.
Doesn't take anything away from the Fantastic 4 at all.
Also, I don't put much solice in those "fighting skill" ratings. I think Galactus is a 2 in fighting skills, and Punisher (my favorite character) is a 6 or 7.
Does that mean if they fist fight, Punisher wins?
Apoc has stellar h2h skills, as was shown in his origin story, he is a highly skilled warrior, he just tends not to be portrayed to use those skills because of the way he's written to lurk ominously in the shadows and let his jabroni cronies get their hands dirty carrying out his plans while he laughs at the "pathetic fools" that are going to thwart his plans in the next couple of books in the story arc. Hell, sometimes in the next panel.
If Punisher and Apoc had the same strength level then yes the Punisher would dominate him in H2H.
Not in a CL0 VS. CL100 H2H fight obviously.