Re: Vodo &Jacen Solo vs. DE Sidious
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Alright. So we have who is probably the second most powerful Jedi ever(after NJO Luke) and Jacen Solo(DN if you have read it, if not NJO Jacen) vs. uber Palpatine.Location: Plains of Dantooine
Jacen sucks, and vodo isnt the 2nd most powerful jedi ever...That would be yoda... 🤣
DE palps wins.
Jacen is good though. Near Mace probably. He's studied at least five views of the Force.
Edit: GV, Vodo could take Yoda.
First, Vodo is six hundred. Yoda doesn't have much of an advantage in this catagorey for amount of time to learn about the Force.
Second, Vodo was considered a grandmaster. I figure this pretty much means head of the Order like other similar groups like the Jedi(Taekwondo for example).
Third, Jedi in Vodo's time were generally better than PT Jedi.
Vodo may have fought against Nadd and some of the other True Sith. Added to his experince in the Great Sith War, he has more War experince than Yoda.
Vodo Siosk ? Exar Kun's master ?
Well, Jacen nor Vodo can defeat DE Sidious one-on-one. I suppose it's how well they are coordinated in a team. Jacen will die, no doubt. If she is Mace's equal, she can neither contend with Sidious in the categories of Force powers or lightsaber ability, and will die very quickly. Vodo may be able to take advantage of the scenario while Sidious slaughters Jacen. If he does, he'll be able to win this. If not, he will die. Though he will not be 'slaughtered' quite as bad as Jacen.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jacen is good though. Near Mace probably. He's studied at least five views of the Force.Edit: GV, Vodo could take Yoda.
First, Vodo is six hundred. Yoda doesn't have much of an advantage in this catagorey for amount of time to learn about the Force.
Second, Vodo was considered a grandmaster. I figure this pretty much means head of the Order like other similar groups like the Jedi(Taekwondo for example).
Third, Jedi in Vodo's time were generally better than PT Jedi.
Vodo may have fought against Nadd and some of the other True Sith. Added to his experince in the Great Sith War, he has more War experince than Yoda.
WTH?
I might have to smash you for this stupidity.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jacen is good though. Near Mace probably. He's studied at least five views of the Force.Edit: GV, Vodo could take Yoda.
First, Vodo is six hundred. Yoda doesn't have much of an advantage in this catagorey for amount of time to learn about the Force.
Second, Vodo was considered a grandmaster. I figure this pretty much means head of the Order like other similar groups like the Jedi(Taekwondo for example).
Third, Jedi in Vodo's time were generally better than PT Jedi.
Vodo may have fought against Nadd and some of the other True Sith. Added to his experince in the Great Sith War, he has more War experince than Yoda.
Okay...
1. Yoda is 900, 900>600 if Im correct...
2. Yoda is a grandmaster also, all this means is that you are head of the order and has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
3. Proof? Honestly all this blind speculation is whats killing the forum.
4. OH he *may* of fought against Nadd...There is no worth in this statement at all. What *is* documented is that he fought Exar Kun, his former pupil, and was obliterated in about 10 seconds.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Yoda is 900, 900>600 if Im correct...
What I am saying though is that it isn't much of a difference. Look at how well Sidious' extra age worked for him against Mace or Sidious' against Yoda.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
2. Yoda is a grandmaster also, all this means is that you are head of the order and has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
It has tons to do with the argument at hand.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
3. Proof? Honestly all this blind speculation is whats killing the forum.
Honestly it's people that don't think that are killing it. You simply consider everything that doesn't suit you blind speculation. Let me give you this proof then.
Because I am lazy, I am just going to post some of what I put on a different thread about this. It might not make perfect since. Just ask and I will clarify.
Those societies were isolated though. Which, is what leads to evolution, doesn’t make me believe this unless it is explained more later. Many Force Sensitive species were wiped out along with the leaders of many Force Sensitive leaders in individual species, removing them from the evolutionary change. This is compounded by the fact that Jedi were not allowed to mary, removing their Force Potential from the chain as well.
In nature, natural selection is true, but it often doesn’t apply in Civilized communities. Whenever a solider dies defending a civilian, natural selection was just broken. There are several cases of this in the Star Wars Universe too.
On Ruusan, Lord Hoth was more powerful than Darth Bane, but Bane survived while Hoth did not. Also, on Mustafar, Anakin was more powerful, but Obi-wan survived when Anakin(for all intents and purposes) died. When Kreia let herself die by the Exile’s hand, natural selection once again was broken. When Count Dooku was killed while Anakin lived, natural selection was broken. When Luke lived aboard the Death Star while Vader died, natural selection was broken. Sidious was killed by Anakin, who at this point in his life was actually the weaker of the two. There are so many times in Star Wars, or any civilised community for that matter, that natural selection doesn’t apply, that I don’t believe it can be applied here without any doubt.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
"Now that process is the same for the normal Galaxy but not going on as fast as with the Sith (since they aided the process of natural selection with their society). So naturally the general level of force potential would be higher in the PT times than it was in ancient time even if only by a small amount."
Not true. The Force Pool would expand overtime, making the average person more force sensitive, but making the upper limit lower for any given person. As Civilization expanded, more and more groups of people were incorporated into this pool.
For example, Anakin’s children(Luke and Leia) have less force potential than him (or it at least appears so). A Force Sentive won’t always create a stronger child.
The Jedi were almost purged from the Galaxy on multiple occasions (Great Sith War, Jedi Civil War, New Sith War, etc.).
They have not been refined infact[lightsaber forms]. The skill they were wielded with decreased. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, because it did. Are modern sword fighters anything near Medieval ones? No, they aren’t because they don’t fight wars with them. They also didn’t finish it because it was unnecessary. Their other forms worled fine for them.
The Jedi Civil War lasted two years. The Mandalorian Wars lasted several years. The Hundred Year Darkness lasted one hundred years. The New Sith War lasted a thousand years. Is this really less than the Clone Wars, which, I may add, was NOT fought against beings who could destroy stars.
Some powerful Jedi were killed, but that doesn’t mean all of them were killed. Look at the Battle of the Star Forge, for example. Malak, the strongest Sith alive, was killed, but other, weaker Sith escaped such as the Master who was informing Malak on Revan’s movements). This is another situation in which natural selection doesn’t play out on a civilized community.
Ancient Jedi were definately better than PT Jedi.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
4. OH he *may* of fought against Nadd...There is no worth in this statement at all. What *is* documented is that he fought Exar Kun, his former pupil, and was obliterated in about 10 seconds.
He lived in the Nadd's time. He was a powerful Jedi Master. It makes sense that he fought against him.
Proof that it only took 10 seconds. I want to know who started this brain bug, for that person is a fool. In anycase, Exar would wasted Yoda in less time.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What I am saying though is that it isn't much of a difference. Look at how well Sidious' extra age worked for him against Mace or Sidious' against Yoda.It has tons to do with the argument at hand.
Honestly it's people that don't think that are killing it. You simply consider everything that doesn't suit you blind speculation. Let me give you this proof then.
Because I am lazy, I am just going to post some of what I put on a different thread about this. It might not make perfect since. Just ask and I will clarify.
Those societies were isolated though. Which, is what leads to evolution, doesn’t make me believe this unless it is explained more later. Many Force Sensitive species were wiped out along with the leaders of many Force Sensitive leaders in individual species, removing them from the evolutionary change. This is compounded by the fact that Jedi were not allowed to mary, removing their Force Potential from the chain as well.
In nature, natural selection is true, but it often doesn’t apply in Civilized communities. Whenever a solider dies defending a civilian, natural selection was just broken. There are several cases of this in the Star Wars Universe too.
On Ruusan, Lord Hoth was more powerful than Darth Bane, but Bane survived while Hoth did not. Also, on Mustafar, Anakin was more powerful, but Obi-wan survived when Anakin(for all intents and purposes) died. When Kreia let herself die by the Exile’s hand, natural selection once again was broken. When Count Dooku was killed while Anakin lived, natural selection was broken. When Luke lived aboard the Death Star while Vader died, natural selection was broken. Sidious was killed by Anakin, who at this point in his life was actually the weaker of the two. There are so many times in Star Wars, or any civilised community for that matter, that natural selection doesn’t apply, that I don’t believe it can be applied here without any doubt.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
"Now that process is the same for the normal Galaxy but not going on as fast as with the Sith (since they aided the process of natural selection with their society). So naturally the general level of force potential would be higher in the PT times than it was in ancient time even if only by a small amount."Not true. The Force Pool would expand overtime, making the average person more force sensitive, but making the upper limit lower for any given person. As Civilization expanded, more and more groups of people were incorporated into this pool.
For example, Anakin’s children(Luke and Leia) have less force potential than him (or it at least appears so). A Force Sentive won’t always create a stronger child.
The Jedi were almost purged from the Galaxy on multiple occasions (Great Sith War, Jedi Civil War, New Sith War, etc.).
They have not been refined infact[lightsaber forms]. The skill they were wielded with decreased. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, because it did. Are modern sword fighters anything near Medieval ones? No, they aren’t because they don’t fight wars with them. They also didn’t finish it because it was unnecessary. Their other forms worled fine for them.
The Jedi Civil War lasted two years. The Mandalorian Wars lasted several years. The Hundred Year Darkness lasted one hundred years. The New Sith War lasted a thousand years. Is this really less than the Clone Wars, which, I may add, was NOT fought against beings who could destroy stars.
Some powerful Jedi were killed, but that doesn’t mean all of them were killed. Look at the Battle of the Star Forge, for example. Malak, the strongest Sith alive, was killed, but other, weaker Sith escaped such as the Master who was informing Malak on Revan’s movements). This is another situation in which natural selection doesn’t play out on a civilized community.
Ancient Jedi were definately better than PT Jedi.
He lived in the Nadd's time. He was a powerful Jedi Master. It makes sense that he fought against him.
Proof that it only took 10 seconds. I want to know who started this brain bug, for that person is a fool. In anycase, Exar would wasted Yoda in less time.
1.Age is a definate advantage, age can be overcome(Im not saying age is the beat all attribute here) but your a fool if you just disregard an extra 300 years of training as not an advantage.
2.No it doesnt, were talking about how powerful they are, not their current title within the current jedi order.
3.Applying natural selection to the star wars universe? LOL... C'mon now Glentract that is a fairly interesting theory but it holds no real water. Theres no way of proving that the old orders of the past are stronger than the new ones, unless some of them actually fight.. and even if they were *on average* stronger, there are always exceptions to the rule. You bring up medievil sword-fighting versus current sword fighting, yes on average people were better at sword-fighting back then compared to today,mostly because we hardly ever use swords anymore...however how do you know there isnt somone in this world right now that has dedicated his whole life to art of swordsmanship and formed some sort of sword-fighting cult so that he can hone his skills against worthy human opponents every day? How do you know this man couldnt stand up to the best the medievil times had to offer?
And also the bit you brought up about anakin and that his off-spring had lower force potential, we dont know that luke had lower potential..On the contrary Luke displayed more promise than Anakin ever did, Luke only had what? A year of training? He still went up against his father who was an experienced sith lord and stood toe to toe with him, and after the second time they crossed swords Luke actually bested him. Could Anakin of done this? I seriously doubt it based on his pitiful performance in his first fight with Dooku(Not to mention Anakin had much more training at that point than Luke did).
4. Sure it makes sense but it isnt documented so your statement is completely worthless.
And I got the 10 second thing from Nai Fohl, ask him if you want the proof for it. And even if it wasnt *exactly* 10 seconds, he was still defeated much too quickly and easily if your going to classify him as the 2nd strongest jedi *ever*. You do know by making that statement you ranked him above not only Yoda but:
Ulic- Before he became a sith he was said to be the greatest jedi of his time. He fared much better against Kun than Vodo did, he fought Kun to a draw until Marka Ragnos intervened.
Odan-urr- The 1000 year old legendary jedi master who invented the jedi code.
Mace- The man who invented the deadliest lightsaber form currently known and the man who arguably defeated Sidious. (One of the few jedi to actually stand toe to toe with a dark lord of the sith)
Nomi Sunrider- Was able to use a lightsaber to kill her husbands attackers before learning to use the force, became a lightsaber master within weeks, stripped Ulic of the force.(I got all of this from the comics)
LS Revan-Do I need to explain?
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.Age is a definate advantage, age can be overcome(Im not saying age is the beat all attribute here) but your a fool if you just disregard an extra 300 years of training as not an advantage.Knowledge was still lost. In anycase, Vodo fought in real wars. He fought against Nadd, against the Krath, and against the Sith. Yoda fought droids.
2[QUOTE=5325344]Originally posted by Great Vengeance
[B].No it doesnt, were talking about how powerful they are, not their current title within the current jedi order.
The head of the Order is the most powerful in the Order. If Vodo is the most powerful Jedi in a time when Jedi were stronger, he is more powerful.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
3.Applying natural selection to the star wars universe? LOL... C'mon now Glentract that is a fairly interesting theory but it holds no real water.
Unless you can disprove it, it stands.
T
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
heres no way of proving that the old orders of the past are stronger than the new ones, unless some of them actually fight.. and even if they were *on average* stronger, there are always exceptions to the rule. You bring up medievil sword-fighting versus current sword fighting, yes on average people were better at sword-fighting back then compared to today,mostly because we hardly ever use swords anymore...however how do you know there isnt somone in this world right now that has dedicated his whole life to art of swordsmanship and formed some sort of sword-fighting cult so that he can hone his skills against worthy human opponents every day? How do you know this man couldnt stand up to the best the medievil times had to offer?
If that person didn't fight in real wars, they will never get as strong. Unless you can prove an exception to the rule that fits this, shut up because you are only wasting my time. You also have to prove that this one little guy started his own cult and trains everyday. Like I said before, prove up or shut up.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
And also the bit you brought up about anakin and that his off-spring had lower force potential, we dont know that luke had lower potential..On the contrary Luke displayed more promise than Anakin ever did, Luke only had what? A year of training? He still went up against his father who was an experienced sith lord and stood toe to toe with him, and after the second time they crossed swords Luke actually bested him. Could Anakin of done this? I seriously doubt it based on his pitiful performance in his first fight with Dooku(Not to mention Anakin had much more training at that point than Luke did).
Luke also had a Kaiburr crystal at this point. The Kaiburr crystal mutiplies his power the closer he gets to Pomojema. And may I remind you that Luke was trained to be a weapon; Anakin a keeper of the peace. Don't believe me? Obi-wan actually took over Luke's body the first time Luke fought Vader with the goal of destroying Vader.
He never stood toe-to-toe against Vader until the third time they fought. This third time Luke had the Kaiburr crystal and training to be a weapon.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
4. Sure it makes sense but it isnt documented so your statement is completely worthless.
Is your statement that Vapaad is the deadliest saberform documented? How about it being about ten seconds? How about Ulic being the greatest Jedi in the Order? Nope, they aren't. Therefor completely worthless.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
And I got the 10 second thing from Nai Fohl, ask him if you want the proof for it. And even if it wasnt *exactly* 10 seconds, he was still defeated much too quickly and easily if your going to classify him as the 2nd strongest jedi *ever*. You do know by making that statement you ranked him above not only Yoda but:
Nai isn't a good source when it comes to Ancient Jedi as he is extremely biased against them.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Ulic- Before he became a sith he was said to be the greatest jedi of his time. He fared much better against Kun than Vodo did, he fought Kun to a draw until Marka Ragnos intervened.
Ulic used the Darkside in this fight as was wearing one of Naga's Sith Amulets. He was not a Jedi during this battle, especially since he was fighting for a Sith position.
Also, Vodo was still the Order's Grandmaster. The Grandmaster is the most powerful in the Order at that time.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Odan-urr- The 1000 year old legendary jedi master who invented the jedi code.
Please prove his skill.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Mace- The man who invented the deadliest lightsaber form currently known and the man who arguably defeated Sidious. (One of the few jedi to actually stand toe to toe with a dark lord of the sith)
Please. This is just sad. Mace would be ripped apart by Vodo.
For Jedi who have stood against DLOS, please look at the following list:
Luke(fought two with just four years of training.)
Lord Hoth(fought against the Brotherhood of Darkness Members mutiple times)
LS Revan(Malak)
Jedi Exile(Sion, Nihilus, Traya, Kreia)
Visas(Nihilus)
Yoda(Sidious)
ect.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nomi Sunrider- Was able to use a lightsaber to kill her husbands attackers before learning to use the force, became a lightsaber master within weeks, stripped Ulic of the force.(I got all of this from the comics)
Nomi never became a Jedi Master. She always was a Knight.
Ulic pretty much let her stip him of the Force as he was in shock at that point and totally unable and unwilling to resist.
She killed some thugs, but that was after several weeks under Master Thon. May I remind you that Luke took down Black Sun, much more than a few thus. Also, Corran Horn, with only six weeks took out a massive priate base(one of the largest in the galaxy) and an Imperial Garrison.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
LS Revan-Do I need to explain?
Yes. There is nothing to support Revan defeating Vodo.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The head of the Order is the most powerful in the Order. If Vodo is the most powerful Jedi in a time when Jedi were stronger, he is more powerful.Unless you can disprove it, it stands.
T
If that person didn't fight in real wars, they will never get as strong. Unless you can prove an exception to the rule that fits this, shut up because you are only wasting my time. You also have to prove that this one little guy started his own cult and trains everyday. Like I said before, prove up or shut up.
Luke also had a Kaiburr crystal at this point. The Kaiburr crystal mutiplies his power the closer he gets to Pomojema. And may I remind you that Luke was trained to be a weapon; Anakin a keeper of the peace. Don't believe me? Obi-wan actually took over Luke's body the first time Luke fought Vader with the goal of destroying Vader.
He never stood toe-to-toe against Vader until the third time they fought. This third time Luke had the Kaiburr crystal and training to be a weapon.
Is your statement that Vapaad is the deadliest saberform documented? How about it being about ten seconds? How about Ulic being the greatest Jedi in the Order? Nope, they aren't. Therefor completely worthless.
Nai isn't a good source when it comes to Ancient Jedi as he is extremely biased against them.
Ulic used the Darkside in this fight as was wearing one of Naga's Sith Amulets. He was not a Jedi during this battle, especially since he was fighting for a Sith position.
Also, Vodo was still the Order's Grandmaster. The Grandmaster is the most powerful in the Order at that time.
Please prove his skill.
Please. This is just sad. Mace would be ripped apart by Vodo.
For Jedi who have stood against DLOS, please look at the following list:
Luke(fought two with just four years of training.)
Lord Hoth(fought against the Brotherhood of Darkness Members mutiple times)
LS Revan(Malak)
Jedi Exile(Sion, Nihilus, Traya, Kreia)
Visas(Nihilus)
Yoda(Sidious)
ect.Nomi never became a Jedi Master. She always was a Knight.
Ulic pretty much let her stip him of the Force as he was in shock at that point and totally unable and unwilling to resist.
She killed some thugs, but that was after several weeks under Master Thon. May I remind you that Luke took down Black Sun, much more than a few thus. Also, Corran Horn, with only six weeks took out a massive priate base(one of the largest in the galaxy) and an Imperial Garrison.
Yes. There is nothing to support Revan defeating Vodo.
Now I remember how annoying this gets...
1. If you want me to back up everything little thing I say then where is the proof Vodo ever actually fought in a war?
2. Again, title means nothing, alot of people would argue Mace is stronger than Yoda yet Yoda was the Grandmaster. And you still cling to the idea that old jedi are automatically stronger than new jedi yet I already explained there are always exceptions.
3. Stop being immature, I used this as a hypothetical example not as an actual example. My point was there is always exceptions to the rule, if there even is a rule in this case. If your going to tell us how the star wars universe works than you need absolute proof so it may become law, otherwise its just your speculation enriched theory.
"Luke also had a Kaiburr crystal at this point. The Kaiburr crystal mutiplies his power the closer he gets to Pomojema. And may I remind you that Luke was trained to be a weapon; Anakin a keeper of the peace. Don't believe me? Obi-wan actually took over Luke's body the first time Luke fought Vader with the goal of destroying Vader."
WTH is this? Im not even going to ask for your source because it contradicts the movies therefore it is not valid period.
4. Vaapad being the deadliest lightsaber form is documented here:
It clearly says that form VII is the ultimate form. I realize this site isnt the official site and I will work on finding a source that will shut you up for good but until then atleast I have something, you havent backed up anything you have said at all.
"For Jedi who have stood against DLOS, please look at the following list:
Luke(fought two with just four years of training.)
Lord Hoth(fought against the Brotherhood of Darkness Members mutiple times)
LS Revan(Malak)
Jedi Exile(Sion, Nihilus, Traya, Kreia)
Visas(Nihilus)
Yoda(Sidious)
ect."
Yeah the list you came up with pretty much ends there, I didnt say there were none I said there were few and Im still correct. Also you cant count Visas because she wasnt alone, Im talking about a jedi going one on one with a Dark Lord and not getting pwnt.
Finnaly, all the jedi that I brought up were just examples that you may have overlooked alot of people when you just suddenly named Vodo as the 2nd most powerful jedi. I would probably agree that Vodo could take Nomi , Odan , Mace and Ulic(before he became a sith) though these are still strong jedi and it would definately be debatable.
LS Revan IMO would beat Vodo. Refer to Emperor Revans famous list of Revans greatness for reasons. IMO both Yoda and Revan are in a different league than Vodo, most people on KMC would agree to this. If you want we can open a thread and see what everyone thinks to prove my point.