PT Jedi vs. Kotor Sith
Here's the scenario:
All Jedi that were on Geonosis are on Malachor V invading the Trayus Academy, they must fight their way through the Sith Assassins, Marauders, Apprentices, and Lords to get to the center, where the surviving Jedi must take down Darth Traya and Darth Malak. Can they do it?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jedi take this. There were maybe fifty guys on Trayus. I would be surprised if the Jedi lose 50. Mace can almost equal Malak alone. With Fisto, Malak would die. Luminara, Sora, Obi-wan, Mundi, and Koon would easily take Kreia.
No, you're wrong. Don't be a jedi-biased, Glentract. You do it in every thread that includes the PT jedi.
90 % of the jedi on Geonosis used Niman and were slaughtered like dogs inside of a few minutes. They were horrible fighters.
There are MORE than fifty Sith at Trayus academy. Hell, there's close to twenty just to greet the Exile at the door. These are enemies who feed on the Force strength of their targets and become strong in turn.
Second, Malak is DLotS and has uber powers, and Kreia is better than Yoda. Oh, and it doesn't hurt that nearly every PT jedi from Geonosis hasn't even fought a Sith (much less a bunch of invisible ones and the minor Sith LORDS and Sith MASTERS and Sith MARAUDERS that stalk the halls) except for Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Ianus
No, you're wrong. Don't be a jedi-biased, Glentract. You do it in every thread that includes the PT jedi.
Don't call me Jedi biased. I argued against them for what was easily 150,000 characters against Nai.
Originally posted by Ianus
90 % of the jedi on Geonosis used Niman and were slaughtered like dogs inside of a few minutes. They were horrible fighters.
They were outnumbered 5,000 to one in an open field. The Geonosians also beought in heavy weapons that couldn't not be deflected by a saber(a sonic canon took out two Jedi in one shot).
Originally posted by Ianus
There are MORE than fifty Sith at Trayus academy. Hell, there's close to twenty just to greet the Exile at the door. These are enemies who feed on the Force strength of their targets and become strong in turn.
They obviously can't feed on all of it, or even half, or else the Exile couldn't have defeated them. Remember that the Exile defeated then by himself after he had gotten his force presence back by defeat Nihilus.
Originally posted by Ianus
Second, Malak is DLotS and has uber powers, and Kreia is better than Yoda. Oh, and it doesn't hurt that nearly every PT jedi from Geonosis hasn't even fought a Sith (much less a bunch of invisible ones and the minor Sith LORDS and Sith MASTERS and Sith MARAUDERS that stalk the halls) except for Obi-Wan.
How are these Sith invisible? I seem to remember them having to de-cloak before they could attack.
Also, that statement you made about Malak is borderline fanboy. Uber powers? He was defeated by Revan at minimum twice even even with the power of the Star Forge.
The Jedi have sparred a lot though. KOTOR Jedi rarely fought lightsaber-wielding-Sith either, yet we saw Jedi fighting through the Star Forge faster than Revan did.(The one's who got to Malak before you.)
Also, note Obi-wan in TPM defeating a DLOS. Note Mace defeating one. Neither had ever fought against one before, yet they defeated them.
Don't call me Jedi biased. I argued against them for what was easily 150,000 characters against Nai.
You've argued for the jedi every time they have numerical superiority, despite the fact that they can't play as a good team for shit.
They were outnumbered 5,000 to one in an open field. The Geonosians also beought in heavy weapons that couldn't not be deflected by a saber(a sonic canon took out two Jedi in one shot).
The point was that they were stupid and exposed themselves in infiltrating the arena. This scenario assumes they are trying to infiltrate the Trayus Academy, the Sith home base. They would get slaughtered. The jedi were remarkable failures.
And I doubt it was 5,000 to one. Show me this figure from an official source please.
They obviously can't feed on all of it, or even half, or else the Exile couldn't have defeated them. Remember that the Exile defeated then by himself after he had gotten his force presence back by defeat Nihilus.
They don't feed from it per se; they grow in power because of it. More jedi = more power to grow from. So even if they feed half of that power, they're being empowered to the point of a hundred average jedi on top of their own powers. Pretty impressive.
How are these Sith invisible? I seem to remember them having to de-cloak before they could attack.
Not true. They killed the entire crew of the Harbinger while undetected. Also, they DO attack your party while cloaked, and become visible when you fight back.
Also, that statement you made about Malak is borderline fanboy. Uber powers? He was defeated by Revan at minimum twice even even with the power of the Star Forge.
Oh my god, Glentract... please, stop trying to piss me off already. When have I ever been a Malak fanboy? Ever? When have I ever gone off and been totally, totally over the top with no evidence to support my cause? Never. That's right. So please, stow that "borderline fanboy" crap.
Malak >>> All but two jedi on Geonosis. This is evident. The fact that he easily eliminates the two jedi who were resourceful and powerful enough to make it as far as they did in the Star Forge (Which is farther and faster than Revan's whole team) shows he has good control of the Force. Bastila, whom you argued would be better than Bandon, was frozen in place by Malak while Malak dueled Revan for the first time onboard the Leviathan. Malak -has- power. This is evident, not fanboyism.
Second, Revan is better than Malak. This is also evident. Revan was more or less undisputed master over Malak and Malak never sought to strike Revan down. Revan > Malak. Evident.
The Jedi have sparred a lot though.
Yes, but nowhere like they would forty years after the Sith Wars, back when Jedi were more than mere stewards of a Republic that (As is the case in the PT) haven't seen major Sith action for a thousand years. Today, people aren't exactly great at sword to sword fighting either, because there is little to no use for it, period.
KOTOR Jedi rarely fought lightsaber-wielding-Sith either, yet we saw Jedi fighting through the Star Forge faster than Revan did.(The one's who got to Malak before you.)
They rarely fought lightsaber wielding Sith, huh? Is that why the jedi were killed or turned to the dark side by legions of... Sith? If you want to look at the numbers of Sith in the games as evidence of at the very least numbers of Sith in that era (Or even dark jedi) the ratio is very good that the two DID clash. Saying otherwise is ridiculous.
Also, note Obi-wan in TPM defeating a DLOS. Note Mace defeating one. Neither had ever fought against one before, yet they defeated them.
Obi-Wan was -lucky- to win the battle as he did. Second, Mace is the second best jedi in the line up. Bad sampling. Now if Bultar Swan killed Sith, I would be impressed.
Originally posted by Ianus
You've argued for the jedi every time they have numerical superiority, despite the fact that they can't play as a good team for shit.
That may be true, but that it is because I believe the Jedi would win.
Originally posted by Ianus
The point was that they were stupid and exposed themselves in infiltrating the arena. This scenario assumes they are trying to infiltrate the Trayus Academy, the Sith home base. They would get slaughtered. The jedi were remarkable failures.And I doubt it was 5,000 to one. Show me this figure from an official source please.
First, the Jedi didn't know that there were droids there. Mace Windu even states in literature of the movie(a novel, but it's Lucas approved and doesn't contradict the movie forrbly) that Jedi each Jedi is worth a hundred Geonosians. Dooku then states "how about a thousand droids" and then droids start marching down the hall a few seconds later, surprising Mace.
It was stated there were a million droids on Geonosis. 1,000,000/200 = 5000
Originally posted by Ianus
They don't feed from it per se; they grow in power because of it. More jedi = more power to grow from. So even if they feed half of that power, they're being empowered to the point of a hundred average jedi on top of their own powers. Pretty impressive.
Where does this power come from? Are they like the crystals in that they feed off extra power?
In anycase, their own powers aren't a lot nor is there any evidence stating that they feed off as much as half.
Logically(assuming I am seeing what they do properly) they can't have much of the Exile's power because he defeated all sic at the same time. Kreia defeated twelve(or was it ten) at a time.
Also, what you said assumes that each one can feed off of mutiple opponents.
Originally posted by Ianus
Not true. They killed the entire crew of the Harbinger while undetected. Also, they DO attack your party while cloaked, and become visible when you fight back.
Not as far as I remember. They walk up and you here that noise that they make when they decloak and then attack. I was never attacked by a cloaked one.
Also, they could have killed each crew member then recloaked.
Originally posted by Ianus
Oh my god, Glentract... please, stop trying to piss me off already. When have I ever been a Malak fanboy? Ever? When have I ever gone off and been totally, totally over the top with no evidence to support my cause? Never. That's right. So please, stow that "borderline fanboy" crap.
I never said you're a fanboy, just said that particular statement is borderline fanboy.
Tell me "Malak is DLotS and has uber powers" doesn't sound majorly exagerated.
Originally posted by Ianus
Malak >>> All but two jedi on Geonosis. This is evident. The fact that he easily eliminates the two jedi who were resourceful and powerful enough to make it as far as they did in the Star Forge (Which is farther and faster than Revan's whole team) shows he has good control of the Force. Bastila, whom you argued would be better than Bandon, was frozen in place by Malak while Malak dueled Revan for the first time onboard the Leviathan. Malak -has- power. This is evident, not fanboyism.
The two Jedi Malak killed were already near dead. Both were frozen in place, he just executed them. Also, after fighting through the Star Forge I doubt they would be anywhere near at their peak.
Originally posted by Ianus
Second, Revan is better than Malak. This is also evident. Revan was more or less undisputed master over Malak and Malak never sought to strike Revan down. Revan > Malak. Evident.
Okay. I already know this. Revan took Malak even when Malak had several artifical advantages. Point?
Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, but nowhere like they would forty years after the Sith Wars, back when Jedi were more than mere stewards of a Republic that (As is the case in the PT) haven't seen major Sith action for a thousand years. Today, people aren't exactly great at sword to sword fighting either, because there is little to no use for it, period.
Did any of those Jedi look old enough to have fought in the Great Sith War?
Originally posted by Ianus
They rarely fought lightsaber wielding Sith, huh? Is that why the jedi were killed or turned to the dark side by legions of... Sith? If you want to look at the numbers of Sith in the games as evidence of at the very least numbers of Sith in that era (Or even dark jedi) the ratio is very good that the two DID clash. Saying otherwise is ridiculous.
Look at it this way though. By the Sith Civil War, there were maybe two hundred SIth tops. During the Jedi Civil War there were thousands. Jedi majorly outnumbered Sith in KOTOR times.
Originally posted by Ianus
Obi-Wan was -lucky- to win the battle as he did. Second, Mace is the second best jedi in the line up. Bad sampling. Now if Bultar Swan killed Sith, I would be impressed.
TPM pushed Maul back a fair bit. I would say he did rather well. Someone like Kit or Cin would have defeated him.
In anycase, are you telling me that the Exile could kill what all two hundred PT Jedi could not?