Trials: Sidious and Dooku

Started by Sorgo5 pages

Originally posted by Escape81
I 'never' said 'most powerful Force-user'.

And, go to the Sidious databank, under the Expanded Universe. First paragraph, I believe.

Age and experience do not measure power. So if Dooku were the more powerful Force user, he would've had the title of most powerful Sith. But he did not.

I looked and saw nothing saying he was the most powerful Sith of that time. All I got was this in the form of Mastery of any kind.

and Sidious' mastery of illusion and deceit.

What title?

Originally posted by Sorgo
a) Malak still ripped his Memory to shreds. If it weren't for Malak, it would have been a secret forever. Malak carefully left clues around so he would figure it out, and virtually told him near the end. Revan still owned him, but Malak still owned the Galaxy for a bit of time.

b) Halt for a f*cking second here. YOU'RE Assuming he didn't need the Cane. Can you provide any god damned proof he didn't need the Cane? Or is my Age Theory busted because you said so?

Don't try to talk outside of the movie, because that doesn't matters. That's like me saying "Dooku isn't the one who ripped Anakin to shreds because he had a hernia! SKA!"

You know it's getting sad when you have to try to climb outside of the movie.

a) Yup. It was a clever move. But Revan owns Malak any day of the week.

b) He didn't need the cane. Again, he was seen for the latter half of the movie without it, when in Vader's presence (someone who knew his power) and Luke (someone who knew it from Vader). Now, when he's around power-hungry Moffs and Governors and advisors, he oddly has the cane. When they leave, he doesn't use it and is very quick.

He doesn't need the cane. If he did, he'd have used it all the time.

So yes, your age theory is busted. 😛

Palpatine's.

While I pretty much like both of you for being competent debaters. Before you go on with this "Sidious vs Dooku" stuff for eternity let me give both of you (or maybe only Escape81) some different perspective with some character analysation:

Sidious:
Sidious is by any means a coward. He's a sith and his modus operandi are the rules of the Sith. He uses manipulation, betrayal, deception, stealth actions and so on to archieve his goals. His "power" is an outcome of his philosophy. Most of it (talking about political influence) was archieved through the kinds of actions I mentioned above. While being a capable force user and duellist he doesn't like to rely much on both - at least not when confronted with equal fighters (seen when he tried to escape from Yoda and he killed his own master while his master was sleeping and therefor defenceless).

Dooku:
Dooku while being a Sith completely rejects the "philosophical" part of the Sith lore. He's a political idealist which is the opposite of what Sidious is. When it comes to confrontation (be it political or duells) he always gives his opponents a fair chance. Have a look at it:
- he basically told the Jedi where the Sith Lord can be found by revealing that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lord.
- he gave Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme a chance to survive by placing them in the arena confronting them with monster instead of simply executing them
- he never attacks people before they aren't ready for a fight

The point is: Dooku is very focused on "honorable" action and "fair play" which might come from his aristocratic heritage or from his Jedi education. Keep that point in mind when I now try to give some statements about the most important questions in your debate:

"Dooku fearing Sidious"
By any means of logic I don't see a reason why this should be the case. Dooku is a trained warrior and has experienced some wars (Stark Hyperspace War, Battle of Galindraan against the Mandalorians). He's very skilled in terms of force use and he's an exceptional duellist and he had encountered the most powerful force users and lightsaber duellist of his time (Yoda and Mace) back in times when he was a Jedi.
Now why should he fear Sidious ? In terms of personal power (Force powers, lightsaber skills) they are on a very close level. When it comes to political power: They both controlled an army while Dooku had some advantages here.
a) He's one of the richest individuals in the entire Galaxy.
b) He would have been able to reveal Palpatine as being Sidious at any time he wanted

And just to add it: When Dooku first met Asajj Ventress he tells her what is the difference between a Sith and a normal Dark Side user and this is that "Sith don't fear anything". And "anything" includes Sidious.

The point is that Dooku with his ideals and beliefs would never have seen Sidious as a personal threat because they are on the same side and "betrayal" is nothing that Dooku would even think about which makes the idea of Dooku fearing Sidious quite senseless and leads me to the next point:

"But Dooku was the apprentice"
Yes. He was. The point is: If Dooku would ever had the intention to overthrow Sidious he would have tried to do it in a "fair fight". If he had the intention to do that - and would willfully have done that at any costs he could have easily done that with betrayal.

- before AotC he simply could have told the Jedi who the Sith Lord was they were searching for. The Jedi had limitless confidence in Dooku - hell...they even thrusted him when he has revealed himself as a Dark Sider.
- in ROTS when Sidious was sitting around in this chair Dooku could have simply cut him down. Fear or not. Sidious was without a weapon and defenceless. If Sidious can kill Plagueis in such an situation (and Sidious knew that Plagueis was much more powerful than him) Dooku could have done the same to Sidious.

Fact is: Betrayal doesn't fit Dooku's character. I don't even believe that he ever had in mind to overthrow his master despite the fact that he was a dark side practicioner because being the man he is. If Dooku just had searched for power he could have used his nearly infinite amount of money to buy Senators and make himself the Emperor, he could have used the CIS and overcome the Republic with sheer force.

And he was in fact shocked when his master betrayed him. Shocked because he never thought that his master would be able to do that. Shocked because "betrayal" doesn't fit into his ideology same way "corruption" doesn't fit into it.
That basically means he could never have become the "master" because he totally lags the normal Sith "qualities" and not because he wasn't able to take Sidious out or feared Sidious.

"Sidious is more powerful"
Again we're entering the vast field of speculation.
I wouldn't doubt that Sidious is the most powerful Dark Side practioner in the movies because he simply was trained in the ways of the Dark Side for his entire life where Dooku started to train Dark Side powers at some point after TPM (so he did it for a maximum of 13 years).

But the point is "Dark Side practioner" here.

Dooku on his own was one of the most powerful people that were trained in the Jedi Order during the last centuries. He was able to overpower Mace (although Mace was younger at this point) and Mace is a force prodigy if you consider the facts that he was a Knight at the age of 13 and a Council member at the age of 28 (which means he's basically developing twice as fast as "normal" Jedi).

So Dooku might have a greater potential than Sidious (this is aided by the fact they both have shown a nearly equal mastery in Dark Side powers) and he might be the greater overall force user.

And thinking about it I must say that I my personal view is that this discussion is quite senseless since there is no proof for both opinions (Dooku stronger or Sidious stronger) and it doesn't even matter because they are both on a very equal level. If one of them has an advantage over the other that is only a marginal advantage.

Conclusion:
Dooku and Sidious can't be compared because having a completely different mindset on certain topics. Sidious is a Sith in force use and ideology while Dooku is not. Dooku doesn't see the Jedi as "worthless enemies" he threats then with respect and even helps them. There's no room in his ideology for Sith ideals.

And if they both would ever enter a real fight for the title of the Dark Lord we can't really tell who would have won. On equal ground and without any opportunity to gain advantages through the enviroment I pretty much believe that Dooku would win because they are basically equal in terms of force powers while Dooku is the better duellist.
If "anything is allowed" Sidious will most likely win this because Dooku will fight according to his philosophy which can be compressed into the idea of a "fair fight". And fighting fair against somebody who's ideology is to use "dirty tricks" will most likely result in the fair fighter losing.
Or to make it clear: In a fight like Mace vs Sidious, Sidious will most likely get defeated by Dooku (the same way Mace defeated him) while in a fight that is more like Sidious vs Yoda, Sidious will most likely defeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine's.

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

Sith Ways... Y'know... Betrayal, Deceit.... This doesn't make him the more powerful individual than Dooku. It makes him a better "SITH".

a) Yup. It was a clever move. But Revan owns Malak any day of the week.

b) He didn't need the cane. Again, he was seen for the latter half of the movie without it, when in Vader's presence (someone who knew his power) and Luke (someone who knew it from Vader). Now, when he's around power-hungry Moffs and Governors and advisors, he oddly has the cane. When they leave, he doesn't use it and is very quick.

He doesn't need the cane. If he did, he'd have used it all the time.

So yes, your age theory is busted. 😛

The point is when he doesn't have the Cane, he isn't running around like crazy or utilizing a Lightsaber. He is SLOWLY walking around. Extremely slowly, indicating age has smashed him in the face.

His shoulders also slump to the extreme as when the didn't as much in ROTS. Age is indeed catching up to him. There isn't an Age "Theory". The fact is he was getting old. Too many obvious points, including the damned cane.

Well, it is said in the Ultimate Guide to Star Wars, the old one from '95, that Sidious really doesn't need the cane, but uses to project the image of weakness and age. Keep in mind that only a select few know of Palpatine's secret.

Anyway, I really think the two of you should cool it. Not to be rude or anything, but all this thread is going to do is create even more friction between you. And that really doesn't yield good results.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, it is said in the Ultimate Guide to Star Wars, the old one from '95, that Sidious really doesn't need the cane, but uses to project the image of weakness and age. Keep in mind that only a select few know of Palpatine's secret.

Anyway, I really think the two of you should cool it. Not to be rude or anything, but all this thread is going to do is create even more friction between you. And that really doesn't yield good results.

Actually, Sorgo and I are quite fine with eachother when we leave the thread. He and I talk to eachother via PMs seconds after the debate and we're fine. I respect the guy. He's very persistent.

And, glad to meet you. Whilst I'm not in my most 'composed' form, I still recognize the advice of a veteran around here.

Sorgo, be sure to read the first paragraph of his statement... 😛

Originally posted by Escape81
Actually, Sorgo and I are quite fine with eachother when we leave the thread. He and I talk to eachother via PMs seconds after the debate and we're fine. I respect the guy. He's very persistent.

And, glad to meet you. Whilst I'm not in my most 'composed' form, I still recognize the advice of a veteran around here.

Sorgo, be sure to read the first paragraph of his statement... 😛

This is true, Faunus. Me and Escape81 are perfectly fine out of debates. We know our roles and can keep them in line perfectly.

Interesting... I am going to have to check this Ultimate SW Guide out! 😛

Escape, I never got around to that Sig. I'll do it for you now.

Likewise. Nice to have you around.

And Sorgo? persistent? Try stubborn. Kidding! Spare the Wrath of Sorgo the Cruel!

*Screams as he plummets into Oblivion*

See ? Sorgo is secretly my droid. C-3P0 is his father. Mwahahahaha.

Isn't Palpatine in his early to late 90's by the time of ROTJ?

Sorgo the Cruel? The spawn of the golden dustbucket Threepio?!

SORGO!!11!1!!!!!

No. He's 65 as of ROTS. Meaning that by ROTJ, which is 23 years later, he is 87.

Originally posted by Escape81
See ? Sorgo is secretly my droid. C-3P0 is his father. Mwahahahaha.

Escape... You like?

Faunus, you've yet to express your views. Tell them, if you don't mind. You won't hurt my feelings if you agree with Sorgo.

Originally posted by Sorgo

Escape... You like?

Looks awesome. I'll use it tomorrow (about beddy-bye time for me). I have a long day ahead of me.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
No. He's 65 as of ROTS. Meaning that by ROTJ, which is 23 years later, he is 87.

Ah, alright. Well, close enough.

Originally posted by Escape81
Looks awesome. I'll use it tomorrow (about beddy-bye time for me). I have a long day ahead of me.

Check this out. I went from Paint to Photoshop.

Originally posted by Escape81
Faunus, you've yet to express your views. Tell them, if you don't mind. You won't hurt my feelings if you agree with Sorgo.

In all honesty, I have to side with Escape in this one. I don't think he's being particularly judgemental or biased in either character's favor, and his assessment of their abilities seem accurate enough.

The truth is, I myself have recently ecome somewhat irked with the level of disregard giving to certain characters. Sidious is possibly the most disrespected major character on the board. I was alright with it until somewhat said that Anakin and Obi-Wan could out-duel Palpatine. Erm, no.

Now, no one jump at me for my opinion, but whatever. Personally, I believe the Emperor to possess a greater knowledge and mastery of the Dark Side, and is also better suited to its use. Am I saying Dooku sucks? No. When he back-kicked Anakin into the air and Gripped Obi-Wan simultaneously, I was impressed. That takes concentration and skill. However, Sorgo himself said it; Dooku lives, works, and fights by a code of honor. He is governed by his ideals and morals, and would never even toe some of the lines that Sidious is willing to cross. He is not as evil, as malicious, as Sidious is, and so can never use the more advanced, the more wicked tricks of the Dark Side as well as Palpatine can. Don't get me wrong, he is formidable in terms of Force ability. And he is far from being totally outclassed here. But I think Sidious has the advantage in this department.

Dueling ability is the harder one. While Dooku has displayed amazing swordsmanship, I don't think he overwhelm Sidious with his mastery of the lightsaber here. I certainly think that he has the slight advantage here, as he is the only living master of a dueling-centric saber form. But I think it would be a decent fight.

Overall, I believe that Sidious would most likely defeat Dooku in a battle of the Force, although it would gruelling, but would fall in a classic duel setting, or your regular 'fair' fight. If he is able to find any sort of environmental advantage, however, he will use his wicked nature to turn the fight in his favor. He is, after-all, the dirtiest fighter of his time.

And Sorgo, I'm lovin' the sig. Very nice work.