Evolution vs Intelligent Design...

Started by Ron Jeremy14 pages

I see what your saying but all religions and all pressue groups are always biased. By there very nature they have to be - Muslems have biased beliefs, Catholics have biased beliefs, Jews have biased beliefs etc, I could give specific examples but I don't want to insult your intellince. Something like The Last Three minutes by Paul Davies or the First three minutes the book that promted it provide a great deal of evidence in favour of the big bang "theory" e.g. microwave radiation traced back etc. The Blind Watchmaker or River out of Eden by Richard Dawkins provide high levels of evidence for post Darwinian evolution, however these still remain theories. They also have holes in and reputable scientists have put forward alternatives.

We risk by absolute disregard of alternatives finding metaphorically that "the world is flat".

'These remain theories' is a statement that again betrays ignorance of the scientific process.

There is nothing 'only' about a theory. Theory is about as good as it gets in science- as I pointed out, gravity is a theory.

As it is, what those scientists put forwards were hypotheses. They may possibly be considered theory but., as you say, they are still under attack and mjay have to be refined to avoid being contradicted.

But even if they did as well as they could possibly do, they would still never be 'more' then theories. There is no more to get to.

Science, as I also repeatedly pointed out, is very strongly about always being open to alternatives- if they can be evidenced.

Yes, all relgions are biased and that's exactly why this crap shouldn't be taught in science! All sources that claim that "there is valid scientific evidence for ID" are like the site whob referenced and have an agenda that they are desperately clinging too and trying to sneak past folk.

Actually theories are not as good as it gets proofs and laws are a slighly better kind of theory. Please I suspect my level of scientific education is as high as most on this board.

Well clearly there are some issues with it as that is incorrect.

As I have repeatedly said, science is not about absolute proof, it is about finding evidence for workable theories to explain observed phenomena. That's all science ever does, and it is all any idea trying to explain the development of life on this planet is ever going to get. Theory is the upper end.

It so happens that workable theories are very powerfulm;not airy-fairy things that are not really so, as people tend to have a habit of believing.

Laws are simply examples of observed phenomena; you still need a theory to explain why they are laws.

Sorry, but saying that these things 'remain theories' shows serious issue with understanding of science. You would have to discard most of mankind's scientific knowledge on that basis.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well clearly there are some issues with it as that is incorrect.

As I have repeatedly said, science is not about absolute proof, it is about finding evidence for workable theories to explain observed phenomena. That;s all science ever does, and it is all any idea trying to explain the development of life on this planet is ever going to get. Theory is the upper end.

It so happens that workable theories are very powerful; not airy-fairy things that are not really so, as people tend to have a habit of believing.

Laws are simply examples of observed phenomena; you still need a theory to explain why they are laws.

Sorry, but saying that these things 'remain theories' shows serious issue with understanding of science. You would have to discard most of mankind's scientific knowledge on that basis.

I don't disagree with you you cannot have absolute proof read my post again.
Post Darwinian evolution is only a theory and I am saying that as a Molecular Biologist with Degrees from Notts Poly, Southbank Uni and Uni of London.

Laws rely on theories I said that.
No Science is a tool giving us the best understanding with outr present level of knowledge.
If Albert and Issac could believe in God and reconcile their faith with science I can also.

I do not say disregard mans knowlege but Laws get revised look at the Law of conservation of Mass.

You do understand what "uncertainty" means in "broadest" terms Ush.

Originally posted by Ron Jeremy
Actually theories are not as good as it gets proofs and laws are a slighly better kind of theory. Please I suspect my level of scientific education is as high as most on this board.

But it takes a lot of time and refinement for a theory to become a law. Evolution needs hundreds of years of study before we can have a good enough understanding to determine any laws from it. 😄 We are talking about processes that take hundreds of millions of years, and to think we would have any real understand after such a short time. In hundreds of years we will have a truer understanding, if we are allowed to continue the process unabated and uncorrupted.

Again, you say 'only' a theory as if it could ever be anything better, which is still nonsense. Do you really think that things like gravity are 'only' theories? As I say, if you disregard something because it is 'only' a theory, you would lose all the basis for those laws as well. That WOULD be discarding man's knowledge. Scientific progress is based upon working theories.

I don't see what laws being revised has to do with it, that only goes along with what I say.

And the idea that a scientist can have faith is hardly an issue either- so long as that faith is not taught as science, as is the issue here.

whob and others keep asking for absolute proof of evolution, as if science depends on it and the absence of it dooms the theory. I am sure you at least agree that that is nonsense because there is no such thing.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, you say 'only' a theory as if it could ever be anything better, which is still nonsense. Do you really think that things like gravity are 'only' theories? As I say, if you disregard something because it is 'only' a theory, you would lose all the basis for those laws as well. That WOULD be discarding man's knowledge. Scientific progress is based upon working theories.

I don't see what laws being revised has to do with it, that only goes along with what I say.

And the idea that a scientist can have faith is hardly an issue either- so long as that faith is not taught as science, as is the issue here.

whob and others keep asking for absolute proof of evolution, as if science depends on it and the absence of it dooms the theory. I am sure you at least agree that that is nonsense because there is no such thing.

theories are models and open to change - The theories we have now are a "best fit" - The theories we have in the future will fit better.

They may involve a radical shift

I had to shortnen your posts..they take up way too much space, and I don't believe everyone wants to be forced to read them again..I've managed to keep the main points and replaced most of the rambling with "blah..blah" so that you'll believe that I truly am trying to respond to each of them..sigh..where to begin...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
blah..blah..

Scientific theories can never be 'fully' proven unless you somehow manage to observe and test every single conceptual thing in the Universe...

Nothing is 100% certain- it is conceptually impossible.

Everything in the Universe must be tested..for a theory to be fully proven?

Your rationale is clearly approaching the level of a childlike at this point.

So nothing in science is definitive or proven...lol..well answer these questions for me please Ush..Oh hell I'll answer them for you...

Can a physician determine whether or not an individual is dead? ✅

Will you die someday? ✅

Does force = mass * acceleration? ✅

Does momentum = mass * velocity? ✅

Is 2+2=4 ✅

Are you a moron? 😆

These are all constants Ush..but wait..are you going to now tell me..there's no definitive way to tell if someone is dead, to determine momentum, or to prove that 2+2 = 4..? How did we technologically advance all these years..if we had no definitive ways of proving these things?

Think long and hard about your faith my friend, and the absurdity which you've just attested to believing in. Please end this discussion on constants and absolutes Ush..you only continue to make yourself look more pathetic.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
A theory CAN be contradticted, however, and this is the mechanic of science...blah..blah..

Of course a theory can be contradicted. A theory doesn't necessarily equate to being "truth" That's what has been pointed out about your "faith" the entire time within this thread. All a theory is essentially is an "explanation"..anyone can make up an explanation of something to support what they believe in. That's really common sense stuff Ush. You make things way too complex.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I hate to tell you this, whob, because you still labour under this massive misapprehension of what science is..blah..blah..

My disbelief in "Darwinian" Theory..ie life evolved from protoplasmic goo..doesn't mean that I disregard valid scientific concepts. The typical strategy of many who oppose Neo-Darwinist's like yourself..is the "Divide and Conquer" method. You automatically paint anyone who disagrees with your foolish pseudo scientific ramblings..as being an opponent of "science." This is simply not the case my friend. I'm not opposed to anyone teaching evolutionary theory...rather, I like many others just wish to have their "philosophical" viewpoints regarded with as much credo as Darwinian ones.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Incidentally, what the speaker says na be validated as true because the nature of the scientific method itself is NOT science. That is simply fact, like the rules of a football game. That is what it is; get used to it.

The nature of the scientific method is not science?...LMFAO

Please enlighten me Ush..if the SCIENTIFIC Method's nature is not based on SCIENTIFIC rationale..what is it based on? Thrill me Ush..I could use a couple more laughs...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You once more make referenc to 'Naturalistic Humanism'. Once more, that is pure golden crap. For those who do not know, the term given above is one that Creationists use to label scientists to try and make out that scientists are following a belief system, as much a belief system as any religion.

The argument is ID vs Science..it is ID vs Darwinism. Both are philosophical concepts. How many times must this be repeated to you?!!

And stop using the silly "They're attacking science!!" speel. It's getting old. It's just as easy for me to post.."Darwinism is a Religion..not science!!!" to counter. Why don't you attempt to attack the actual foundations of the theory. I'll post them for you..


Intelligent Design

(DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):

1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

The four processes that whob refers to are NOT a prerequiste of the operation of science alone..blah..blah..

It is, of course, the supremest bollocks to say that. As I continually say, science differs from a belief system funadmentally in the nature that it is continually open to revision and change..blah..blah *10^10000

The worse your points get whipped..the more crap you post..I guess your attempting to minimize the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about. Basically what I got out of the statement above was this.

Originally posted by Ushgarak translated by whobdamandog
I agree with whob..but these assumed "truths" also apply to things other than science..

So to nail the hammer on the head. You agree that there are some things assumed to be "absolute truths" within science. Rationality, Intelligibility, Orderliness, and Uniformity..are all assumed to true, before administering any test. (**note this makes them absolutely 100% fact!!!) We can't test these things Ush..so we just assume that they are facts. This argument on absolutes is over, seeing as how you've just aided me in shooting down your own argument.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Odd that you mention clockmakers- I recommend you read the book "The Blind Watchmaker" to understand why evolution, in no way at all, implies chaos- quite the opposite. It is beautifully ordered, and fully automatic.

Blind watchmaker..haven't read it..but it sounds like a stupid book..with an oxymoronic title..only a dummy would allude system as complex as the universe being formed..by "blind chance"

Much of Einsteins "Theory of Relativity" and "Clockmaker" ideas, allude to something of intelligence creating the Universe. "Relativity" was really only meant to represent how the "Intelligent Designer" viewed the universe, not how we as human beings view it.

Think about it..if you had the ability to create time/space/reality etc..what the hell do those things mean to you? Answer: Nothing seeing as how you can take them away or do anything you want with them on a whim.

Case in point..What Einstein was trying to imply..is that we live in a world that is full of absolutes..but these absolutes are merely "relative" to the one who created the Universe..seeing as what he/she has created all things which embody it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I said that it was VALID SATIRE...blah..blah..I'm such a dink..

Hence, I called it a 'valid satirical refutation'. Now, have you got that, or shall I speak more slowly to you?

True satire...lol..give it up bud..a satire is not true statement, story, etc...by its very definition..it is not true...😆 😆

It would be like if your were attempting to state he told a true fabricated story?..Does that make sense?..I don't think so my friend..Are you really that arrogant and foolish..to the point where you even begin to challenge the definition of words given in a dictionary? Please don't answer that question..its rhetorical. We already know the answer to that one.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Meanwhile, anyone can look in a decent dictionary-

Because yes, the selective definitiion of Creationism you have quoted there is nonsense.

LMFAO!!

Meriam Webster is not a Descent dictionary?!!! Well it's only been around for the past 100 years or so..no further comment is necessary here.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
If there WAS such evidence for Creationism, scientists would accept it as a theory. That's the point- scientists don't have a pre-determined agenda. They simply make theories out of the available observable evidence.

Meanwhile...

No, I don't sound dogmatic or relgiious at all when putting my views across- only you think that.

blah..blah..

I don't care how many irrational fools think ID should be equated with Evolution.

So then. There are no illusions in what I speak of...(except the illusion of "victory"😉

Ush your challenging definitions given by the dictionary..

Stating that science has no facts to support it...

Stating that everything in the Universe must be proven to make sure that a scientific concept...

Among countless other foolish things...

Maybe you're right my friend you don't sound all that religious...now you simply are just coming across as stupid.


You done yet?

Perhaps..until you post some other moronic comment..I find it quite amusing putting your "scientific" cold hard facts down..(note..I thought science had no absolute proofs?)

Originally posted by Ron Jeremy
theories are models and open to change - The theorries we have now are a "best fit" - The theories we have in the future will fit better.

They may involve a radical shift

But of course. As I continually say, all theories are open to change and re-interpretation as new evidence and appraoches come to light. That is the very essence of science.

Our understanding of the world around us continually changhes and shifts and improves- that's true of both gravity and evolution.

Wow whob, you're not only posting biased websites with an obvious agenda and claiming them to be "good sources" but now you're actually altering the quotes of Ush to try and help your side of the argument.

Yeah, Group think is indeed the reason why everyone disagrees with you. Couldn't just be that you present your arguements in a petty, flawed and pathetic manner.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But of course. As I continually say, all theories are open to change and re-interpretation as new evidence and appraoches come to light. That is the very essence of science.

Our understanding of the world around us continually changhes and shifts and improves- that's true of both gravity and evolution.

Then why are you disagreeing with me?

I think you need to reread my posts - Its the idea of absolutism that worries me, Originally when I went to University and I still believe it now, the "chemical soup" not disimilair to the orgaic compounds in hot springs in Iceland led to life on Earth. However since the Mars Rock some very reputable scientists postulate bacteria from Space could have led to life on Earth. I don't know which it was. It could have been God. Can any off us say for certain it was not.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
I think PVS hacks more on people not so much for them being religious as much as them being either ignorant and religious or stupid and religious.

The religion seems to take a back seat to the personality, but that's just my take, I could be wrong, have been before, will be again.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
so tell me, do you use smilies to mask the fact that you're angry and crying when you post, or do you think that they somehow validate a thoughtless and benign post like this:

Where Picador goes dodger follows...😆 The more you guys post..the more you support my initial argument of "Groupthink." I have no idea why you all have so much angst towards those whose beliefs oppose your own. If this forum carries so much importance to yourself PMS, and few other dinks whom support you, then I truly pity you, and perhaps I should tone my arguments a bit..so as I don't offend those who are "tender" hearted.

I should start a new thread entitled Picador and Friends. 😆 😆

Okw hob, here we go again...

First of all, you still do not seem to grasp the concept that there is no such thing as absolute proof. This is a given in all things scientific and if you do not understand it, you still do not understand science. Again.

So:

"Can a physician determine whether or not an individual is dead?"

Scientifically? No. We have no idea what the scientific point of death is. We have some theories but nothing even remotely approaching an absolute idea.

"Will you die someday? "

Probably, but you cannot absolutely prove that.

"Does force = mass * acceleration? Does momentum = mass * velocity? "

According to classical phgysics, yes. That is a theory, however, that is continually under attack and our understanding of such physics is not complete. This is not absolute; all concepts of mass and acceleration are part of a theory that well explains observed phenomenon but NONE of it is absolute proof. You MUST wrap your head round this concept if you want to adhere to science.

"Is 2+2=4 "

As I said when I first made these points:

"The phrase "scientific fact" is an oxymoron. So is the phrase "scientific proof." Science, unlike mathematics, does not consist of a collection of airtight proofs. Nor is it a large body of "facts"

That question is Maths, and hence irrelevant. Maths IS about fact, in contrary to the scientific method.

Hence, once more, for the hard of thinking... there is no faith in my views. It is based only on evidence, not belief.

"Of course a theory can be contradicted. A theory doesn't necessarily equate to being "truth" That's what has been pointed out about your "faith" the entire time within this thread. All a theory is essentially is an "explanation"..anyone can make up an explanation of something to support what they believe in. That's really common sense stuff Ush. You make things way too complex. "

No- absolutely not, Something has to be far more than just an explanation to be a theory. It has to be evidnece and to withstand assault, as I have already described. Again, you are not grasping what a theory is. Try again.

"My disbelief in "Darwinian" Theory..ie life evolved from protoplasmic goo..doesn't mean that I disregard valid scientific concepts. The typical strategy of many who oppose Neo-Darwinist's like yourself..is the "Divide and Conquer" method. You automatically paint anyone who disagrees with your foolish pseudo scientific ramblings..as being an opponent of "science." This is simply not the case my friend. I'm not opposed to anyone teaching evolutionary theory...rather, I like many others just wish to have their "philosophical" viewpoints regarded with as much credo as Darwinian ones. "

The problem is that it is not pseudo-scientific. It is perfectly valid science. Yes. it is up to deabte and new interpretation, but not for simple dismissal. Because it is part of a scientific process and has the best explanation we can currently give, this is why such things belong in science class, whereas your ideas do not.

I am willing to accept that you accept scientific rationality. This is the point the stary of this thread makes- you follow along with that, because it is only logical and common sense to do so, but them dump it as soon as your faith is contradicted; that's what makes the issue so poor from your side.

"The nature of the scientific method is not science?...LMFAO

Please enlighten me Ush..if the SCIENTIFIC Method's nature is not based on SCIENTIFIC rationale..what is it based on? Thrill me Ush..I could use a couple more laughs..."

How can you be so dumb as to not understand this?

There is a fact as to what is and is not the scientific method. The scientific method is not a scientific pehneomenon, it is something that has been defined BY HUMANS. You don't use science to somehow 'discover' the scientific method. We just simply created it, hence we have absolutel control over what it is, hence it is a fact.

Your argument there is STAGGERING? How could you possibly think such retarded nonsense as to believe that you need to use science to uncover the meaning of what 'scientific method' means?

The argument is ID vs Science..it is ID vs Darwinism. Both are philosophical concepts. How many times must this be repeated to you?!!

And stop using the silly "They're attacking science!!" speel. It's getting old. It's just as easy for me to post.."Darwinism is a Religion..not science!!!" to counter."

Well, by your words and actiond, you ARE attacking science, so you only have yourself to blame.

Darwinism... althougy that's a misleading term, because Evolution has moved way beyond its poriginal postulation... is NOTHING to do with religion or faith or any such thing; it is only an attempt to provide a scientific explanation to the observable evidence. You just have this self-imposed block that doesn't let you see that and makes you think that it is a philisophical belief when, unlike ID, it has nothing to do with philosophy at all.

"1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems."

All four of those? Beliefs ONLY. Not theories. No evidence for those being the explanation. I accept they are beliefs. I do not even unequivocably state them as wrong.

But until they can be evidenced, they have no place in the science

"I agree with whob..but these assumed "truths" also apply to things other than science..

So to nail the hammer on the head. You agree that there are some things assumed to be "absolute truths" within science. Rationality, Intelligibility, Orderliness, and Uniformity..are all assumed to true, before administering any test. (**note this makes them absolutely 100% fact!!!) We can't test these things Ush..so we just assume that they are facts. This argument on absolutes is over, seeing as how you've just aided me in shooting down your own argument."

More gibberish. I absolutely did not say that at all. I said that they are simply assumptions that everyone, not just scientists, make as part of being human. As I also said, philisophical scepticism is a useless path.

But let's say we just moved to crazy world and what you say is true, that science is nothing but a vast naturalistic conspiracy...

... then tough. The science classroom is a place where things are taught according to those four ideas. hence, in any case, Evolution belongs there and ID does not.

So either way, you are still boned.

"Blind watchmaker..haven't read it..but it sounds like a stupid book..with an oxymoronic title..only a dummy would allude system as complex as the universe being formed..by "blind chance"

Much of Einsteins "Theory of Relativity" and "Clockmaker" ideas, allude to something of intelligence creating the Universe. "Relativity" was really only meant to represent how the "Intelligent Designer" viewed the universe, not how we as human beings view it.

Think about it..if you had the ability to create time/space/reality etc..what the hell do those things mean to you? Answer: Nothing seeing as how you can take them away or do anything you want with them on a whim.

Case in point..What Einstein was trying to imply..is that we live in a world that is full of absolutes..but these absolutes are merely "relative" to the one who created the Universe..seeing as what he/she has created all things which embody it. "

Simple opinion. You can read that into Einstein if you want; I might read something entirely different. But what there most certainly is not there at any point is any evidence for your views- so again, this is just down to belief, not fact.

"True satire...lol..give it up bud..a satire is not true statement, story, etc...by its very definition..it is not true...

It would be like if your were attempting to state he told a true fabricated story?..Does that make sense?..I don't think so my friend..Are you really that arrogant and foolish..to the point where you even begin to challenge the definition of words given in a dictionary? Please don't answer that question..its rhetorical. We already know the answer to that one.

Ok, this really is still the most stupid part of your entire post. I cannot understand how any grown person can be quite so stupid.

LOOK AGAIN AT WHAT I SAID.

I explained it very clearly, step by step. I said that it was a valid use of satire. Look up what valid means. Look what the phrase 'valid use of' means. Then look at what I said again, and stop engaging with this totally mornic bilge about 'truth; that you seem to feel the need to indulge in.

You cannot understand a simple word phrase. Y have learners with severe mental difficulties who graps simple things like that in no time at all, yet you cannot. It simply defies sense that you could continue to try and see things like that. Are you SO blinded by your crappy argument that you cannot see how incredibly stupid you look here?

"LMFAO!!

Meriam Webster is not a Descent dictionary?!!! Well it's only been around for the past 100 years or so..no further comment is necessary here."

A crappy definition is a crappy definition. Let;s see what Roget's says:

"cre·a·tion·ism: Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible"

Belief only. The OED has a similar definition.

Creationism is NOT theory, it does not meet any of the cirteria of being a theory, and not even many Creationists think it is one.

Sorry, but your source there is talking shit. It;s not a theory.

"Ush your challenging definitions given by the dictionary..

Stating that science has no facts to support it...

Stating that everything in the Universe must be proven to make sure that a scientific concept...

Among countless other foolish things...

Maybe you're right my friend you don't sound all that religious...now you simply are just coming across as stupid. "

I am challenging crappy definitions that defy sense with better ones that do not.

I am stathing the simple fact that in science there is no such thing as absolute proof- I didn't actually say that science has no facts to support it, I said that the idea of absolute proof is BS.

I said that for there to be absolute proof, NOT a scientific concept, those are YOUR words that you are trying to clumsily give to me, you would have to prove that something worked in all places in all ways at all times... this, again, is a nother basic tent of science which is part of why there is no such thing as absolute proof.

But most of all, I am demonstrating once more that you are the one who is sounding stupid, as is simply self-evident for all to see.

You are the one who twists words and changes what people say to try and fit your own ends, and the absurd knots you have tied yourself in over the 'satire' thing is the most pitiable thing I have seen this year.

Keep on going, if you want. Your claim to be 'finished' in this thread seems to be dead as ever...

The Blindwatchmaker is a book about post Darwinian theory Ush - it maybe the most famous popularist science book of all - It actually supports the view of no creator hmmmm. You shouldn't just disregard things - sometimes people put things into posts for other reasons.

Its cool though.

Hang on, where is this coming from? Where did I ever say I disregarded it? Just a few posts ago I even recommended it to whob, before you mentioned it.

Are you confusing what whob said with what I did?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Hang on, where is this coming from? Where did I ever say I disregarded it? Just a few posts ago I even recommended it to whob, before you mentioned it.

Are you confusing what whob said with what I did?

perhaps, i'll reread your post.

I admit the post is a mess. But the parts inside quote marks are whob's. Excewpt there is a missing " at the end of his comment about satire... which still defies belief.

(The comment, not the missing ", which is easy to believe).

I'm so confused...hi ush:-)