Republic Crusiers can blow the heck out of his ship. He can't hold it together permanetly, and a few thousand turbolaser shots and Nihilus is down. Ragnos on the otherhand should be able to force push enemy ships into stars of if over a planet, push them down into the planet, effectively destroying the ship. Thing is though, he didn't want to attack the Republic. He could have been a larger potential threat, but wasn't one in the end.
Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, the Republic couldn't blow up his ship, since his Force power kept it together.And Nihlus weakened himself by trying to drain the exile, but the Exile cannot be drained because he is himself a wound in the Force.
1.No his force power kept the ship from falling apart on its own, but if it was attacked with enough force Nihilus wouldnt be able to protect his ship or himself.
2.I know that.. the point was if you stick a lightsaber through him he can die, meaning the republic would probably be able to set up a trap of some sort to kill him which would also take advantage of his apparent stupidity.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
We know he was more powerful than Sadow, who in another thread I showed had the power behind his force push equivalent to several thousand stars(I don't remember what thread though, but it was recently). A star destroyer produces power equal to a star, so it's engines produce less thrust than that.
That was the Revan vs Kyp thread I think...I cant say you convinced me, you never showed proof that Naga actually moved anything within the star as opposed to blowing it up through means we dont know about. Ragnos probably has a mean force push but I wouldnt go as far as you on this one.
It's actually not impossible. The Kaiburr Crystal could have made people almost that powerful. It was said that if one person had the entire crystal and was at it's point of origin, it would increase there force powers by a thousand fold. Add that to a few Sith Amulets and Coleman Trebor is blowing up galaxies.
Incorrect. Sadow's ship performed the "star moving/ripping" feat, as I've proven repeatedly. Therefore, it is unlikely that Ragnos can perform feats as you've said, Glentract.
If Sadow could rip the core from a star by himself regardless of his ship, why didn't he do all the things you said Ragnos could do (force pushing ships)?
He didn't. He can't. It was the ship and weapon he designed. Period.
Originally posted by IKC
Incorrect. Sadow's ship performed the "star moving/ripping" feat, as I've proven repeatedly. Therefore, it is unlikely that Ragnos can perform feats as you've said, Glentract.If Sadow could rip the core from a star by himself regardless of his ship, why didn't he do all the things you said Ragnos could do (force pushing ships)?
He didn't. He can't. It was the ship and weapon he designed. Period.
You do realize that absence of proof is not proof of absence, right?
Originally posted by Illustrious
You do realize that absence of proof is not proof of absence, right?
Gee Illustrious, whenever I state correctly that the shown power of the ancient Sith is not a result of any inherent ability but a product of their ability to create artificial means to use the Force, you seem to get worked up with inventing with rhetorical means to argue against me, rather than presenting any evidence that proves the contrary. May I ask why?
To be fair, Ragnos may have had similar or better devices/amulets/baubles than Sadow. And, of course, Ragnos definitely had more Force power than Sadow. This, however, doesn't mean Ragnos could go out in a normal ship and start pushing capital ships into planets or suns or anything. That's ridiculous.
Te real point is their inherent powers are unstated since they are always at full power due to their lifestyle. You think Naga Sadow takes off his baubles and struts around? He has living enemies everywhere.
To assume that their normal power is much lower or even that it's comparable with later Force users begs for evidence. And there is none, so I don't see the point really. What, is Sadow gonna fight naked in the next match?
Originally posted by IKC
Gee Illustrious, whenever I state correctly that the shown power of the ancient Sith is not a result of any inherent ability but a product of their ability to create artificial means to use the Force, you seem to get worked up with inventing with rhetorical means to argue against me, rather than presenting any evidence that proves the contrary. May I ask why?To be fair, Ragnos may have had similar or better devices/amulets/baubles than Sadow. And, of course, Ragnos definitely had more Force power than Sadow. This, however, doesn't mean Ragnos could go out in a normal ship and start pushing capital ships into planets or suns or anything. That's ridiculous.
I type one sentence. You give me two paragraphs of bullshit. Who's worked up now? Maybe it's because I don't like it when people bullshit facts and unsupported theories that contradict stated narration? That might be it.
The fact of the matter is that you don't have any clue what the actual raw power of the Ancient Sith are. However, we do know that it is "immense" by book definition, and clearly with the equipment they are godlike. Now Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Lord Simus, and Marka Ragnos are the most powerful 4, what should that tell you? Basic inference.
Honestly, I don't know why I bother with people who can't put 2 and 2 together, and instead hope to try to argue something to an unstated in order to prove a nonexistent point to begin with. Just what are you compensating for?
Te real point is their inherent powers are unstated since they are always at full power due to their lifestyle. You think Naga Sadow takes off his baubles and struts around? He has living enemies everywhere.To assume that their normal power is much lower or even that it's comparable with later Force users begs for evidence. And there is none, so I don't see the point really. What, is Sadow gonna fight naked in the next match?
Thank you. At least someone has some basic logical reasoning.
Actually, for that matter. You haven't offered any proof that the Ancient Sith aren't godlike like the narrator describes them. Showing another individual that replicated one or two feats with their magic or their equipment doesn't do anything except prop the Ancient Sith up for coming up with the shit to begin with.
The fact of the matter is if you are trying to contradict offical narration (such as arguing that Yoda is blue instead of the stated green), you have to offer definitive proof. You haven't, you can't, yet you still bullshit. Like I said already, show me the money or shut the f*ck up. With the way you're debating now, you don't want me to even take a step towards my comics, trust me, save of course if you're masochistic.
Maybe it's because I don't like it when people bullshit facts and unsupported theories that contradict stated narration?
Why is it my stated narration is not quite up to your standards, then? I forget, did you or did you not accept that it was Sadow's ship, not his force power, that was capable of ripping the cores from stars?
Here it is:
TSW - Narrator, as Aleema flings the star's core at the Jedi and Republic forces: Aleema has used the Sith power in Naga Sadow's ancient ship to rip the core from the center of one of the ten stars in the Cron Cluster. She tosses the flaming, radioactive core directly into the midst of her Jedi pursuers... exactly as Exar Kun had planned!
Emphasis mine.
There are other examples where the narrator emphasizes the power of people who are not ancient Sith, for example calling Kun "the darkest power in the galaxy." Is the narrator's word the only thing that matters?
The fact of the matter is that you don't have any clue what the actual raw power of the Ancient Sith are.
We can estimate fairly well, however, using feats. However, those estimations diminish when we find out that those feats were accomplished through artificial means.
Showing another individual that replicated one or two feats with their magic or their equipment doesn't do anything except prop the Ancient Sith up for coming up with the shit to begin with.
The problem is, Illustrious, these are the only two feats (illusions and stars) that the Ancient Sith have going for them, and have been used in the past to greatly overestimate their power. Frankly, I would rather use hard evidence from the comic rather than the word of the narrator, because the narrator's word is extremely subjective.
With the way you're debating now, you don't want me to even take a step towards my comics, trust me, save of course if you're masochistic.
Yes. I. Do. I've been asking you for the greater part of this week to prove up and give me a better example of the power of the Ancient Sith than the narrator's word. I've already given them, specifically Sadow, credit for inventing these artificial means of controlling, focusing, and enhancing the Dark Side. But when people from later times perform the same and sometimes greater feats with less equipment than the Ancients themselves had, I question whether they're really as naturally powerful as we think.
My entire point is that we need to rethink whether or not the Ancients would curbstomp everyone that came after them. I don't think they could. They have a damned good chance of winning in most cases, but it's not guaranteed.
Originally posted by Ianus
Te real point is their inherent powers are unstated since they are always at full power due to their lifestyle. You think Naga Sadow takes off his baubles and struts around? He has living enemies everywhere.To assume that their normal power is much lower or even that it's comparable with later Force users begs for evidence. And there is none, so I don't see the point really. What, is Sadow gonna fight naked in the next match?
IKC, Janus' argument turns yours to dust. If Sadow fought Exar naked, he would lose, but he always has his armor and crystals with him, making his vastly more powerful.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, Janus' argument turns yours to dust. If Sadow fought Exar naked, he would lose, but he always has his armor and crystals with him, making his vastly more powerful.
And Exar Kun didn't have one of Naga's amulets? He wore the most prominent one, anyway, and one I speculate may be his best. As well, Freedon Nadd was able to create his own amulet. He wasn't an ancient Sith. DE Sidious as well had another of Naga's amulets, as well as a Kaiburr crystal. Is it not rather hard to judge, then, which of these could be more powerful than the other?
This is my thinking: The Ancient Sith and those I've mentioned, as well as others, may well be close to equal in power. The Ancient Sith have an advantage inasmuch as they created many artificial means to increase their power. However, this advantage is partly nullified because many of the beings that came later either came across these creations or found objects that had a similar effect.
Do you have any proof that Exar had Naga's best Amulet? Notice that Nadd was trained BY Sadow. Nadd may very well have been given his by Sadow, which makes sense as nearly all Sith from that time gave their apprentice's Amulets. Again, with DE Sidious, prove that the Amulet was a particularly powerful one and that he had a large enough piece of the Kaiburr Crystal to have much effect(Luke had a piece too, but the farther he got from the place it had bound itself to, the weaker it got.). You need to offer proof.
Also, what did Nadd do that surpasses, or even equals Naga's achivements? What did DE Sidious do that is greater than Naga's feats? In what way did Exar demonstrate power equal with Naga?
The people who followed in the wake of the Ancient Sith found small pieces of what the Ancient Sith really had. They in no way found all or even near all of what the Ancient Sith had.
Originally posted by IKC
And Exar Kun didn't have one of Naga's amulets? He wore the most prominent one, anyway, and one I speculate may be his best. As well, Freedon Nadd was able to create his own amulet. He wasn't an ancient Sith. DE Sidious as well had another of Naga's amulets, as well as a Kaiburr crystal. Is it not rather hard to judge, then, which of these could be more powerful than the other?This is my thinking: The Ancient Sith and those I've mentioned, as well as others, may well be close to equal in power. The Ancient Sith have an advantage inasmuch as they created many artificial means to increase their power. However, this advantage is partly nullified because many of the beings that came later either came across these creations or found objects that had a similar effect.