Prove to me that 2+2 does not = 4

Actually they can be proved. Look around you..we live in a world full of written and natural absolutes.

The earth always revolves around the sun..

Gravity always keeps us stuck to the ground...if you jump out of a 3 story building..you are going to fall to the ground.

Our bodies need water/food in order for us to stay alive...if you don't eat and drink for at all for a long while..you are going to absolutely die.

If we die..we don't come back to life.(except if we are the creator of life...ie Jesus)

If we steal from someone..we are going to get put into jail..(at least if you are a minority or poor

These aren't merely opinions..these are facts my friend."

These are merely opinions..these aren't facts my friend. Life is made up as we go along.

Cool, I assume everyone gets what we mean.

Originally posted by crazylozer
If one has a distorted sense of reality, then yes, aren't they flying?

Maybe in their mind..but not in the REALITY that they are subjected to.
Saying I think I can..I think I can..don't make it so..😆 😆

If say, someone was using a kind of hallucinogenic drug, and thought that there was a wall between themselves and a doughnut, and they walked through it, to them, there is a wall. But to anyone else, there isn't. Who are you to say to them that there isn't a wall? If you say that reality is based on the senses, and the senses are deceived by our own minds, reality itself changes from person to person. 2+2=4 usually does not.

Our Reality is based on senses, fixed laws..etc. Doesn't matter what an individuals perception is. The power of one's perceptions doesn't have any effect on REALITY. It doesn't matter how many times I state that a pig can fly on this board. It ain't going to change the fact that a pic CAN'T fly..😆 😆

Originally posted by Wonderer
My dear friend, "The State" does not technically extend into the underground or into the air - it's only a name. Moreover, the "capitol" is a subjective, human invented mere name, a label...you cannot equate it too ultimate reality...as long as you do that, you won't understand the existentialism of Relative-Absolute-Truth.

You cannot equate everyday life, like baloons and political territory to the non-worldly rules of absolute reality and the Universe - that's plain short-sighted. You must realise that ultimate reality is not logical or illogical, but non-logical or rather, in a higher dimension than logic.

However, I doubt whether you'll be able to understand me via your limited, logical, closed-minded way of reasoning by numbers.

Actually it does..my friend..you ever heard of "airspace?" technically a state/country/city etc extends across the entire area that surrounds it. This includes the air and the ground beneath it. I noticed you didn't attempt to answer the balloon question. Anyway..this is getting into semantics again..everything has been simplified to this simple question..to avoid semantical arguments. Try answering this one..

How does one get to the center of a 3 dimensional object..without actually going through the object?

Give me a way to do this..within this REALITY that we exist in...

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Does being skeptical of Gravity's existence..give one the ability to fly?

Does being skeptical of ones mortality enable one to not eat/drink for 3 months and live?

You can question my argument all you want..but I don't understand how that hell that takes away the validity of it?

That's the most simple minded and illogical rationale I've ever encountered..

You Relativists think by asking a question or by doubting something..that you're waving some magic wand that takes away all the things that happen in the REAL world..

It would be like if you stood in front of a speeding train.. and said..

Ex

Relativist: I doubt that I'm going to get hit...so the train won't hit me..

*then all of the sudden the train mystically disappears..😆

Really that's what you guys seem to think the power of your "doubts" gives you. Some sort of damb mystical ability to change REALITY..😆

Friggin ridiculous..but you all can believe what you wish...

Sad thing is..none of you realize how foolish YOU sound, and the worse part about it is....that you all are so arrogant about your own foolishness/delusions...😆 😆

Gotta go to bed myself..

Night night all. 😖leep:

To be skeptical does not takes away the validity of something, but what you say is not valid since you can´t prove them.

I´m not saying that if I doubt that the train will hit me it won´t, but you can only say that it hit me, because you believe that it actually hit me, it is just your perspective.

You are only an observer, and everything you say is just your own believe, and perspective, you cannot "put words in God´s mouth", and start making absolute statements. Thats arrogance you know.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don't have to give examples, because my relatavist is not talking about absolutes, only possibilities.

Then you don't have any credibility to support your arguments. That makes them invalid. Simple as that.

You cannot prove that these things are NOT possible, however, so to the relatavist, they contain a degree of possibility, hence he does not reject them.

Yes I can. I can send 30 people outside to jump out a window..and guess what. They'll all fall to the ground. That's "proof" of "gravity." Besides..you are getting into circular logic again..Wasn't it a wise man who once said "You can't prove a negative.." you can only prove a "positive"

Moving on past semantics. The burden of proof would be on you. You would have to give me an example..of an individuals ability to jump off a building and go flying in the air..and no..you can't use examples of Neo in the matrix..😆 😆

Your contempt for their position is irrelevant. Their logic still holds- their scepticism still destroys any chance you have of logically proving the existance of an absolute. The fact you might be wrong IS a possibility; your argument ends there.

Their logic does not hold...because there is not credible evidence to support their theories. It's only possible..if one has demonstrated the ability for it to happen within the real world. This isn't the case my friend. Regardless of how many times you state it as being possible..it still doesn't make it possible. Your personal belief, doesn't change the laws of gravity...enable an individual to somehow not eat/drink for 3 months and live, or stand in front of a train and not get hit. But again..you are welcome to try these things. If you come back alive..then I guarantee you, that I will proclaim you the victor of this argument. 😆 😆

That's why the validity of your argument is lost. It doesn't matter how unlikely any of these things are, the logic that counters your attempt to fix absolutes holds. After all what is 'likely'? Just another perception. You say they are impossible, how do you know, have you gained all the knowledge of the entire Universe? Maybe we just haven't seen them yet. A few hundred years ago, much of what we take for granted now would seem magical and impossible; the idea that such things might be possible in the future is certainly conceivable.

PROOF Ush..give me PROOF. You have no PROOF supporting what you believe in. I do. So what does that tell us..which one of our arguments is valid? How would science have progressed over the years, if we had nothing tangible..or no evidence supporting it. Skepticism..does not negate the laws of reality..can't see how you guys can't understand this.

So once more, you will never win that argument, The relatavist can keep doing this to you.

-

"Actually they can be proved. Look around you..we live in a world full of written and natural absolutes.

The earth always revolves around the sun..

Gravity always keeps us stuck to the ground...if you jump out of a 3 story building..you are going to fall to the ground.

Our bodies need water/food in order for us to stay alive...if you don't eat and drink for at all for a long while..you are going to absolutely die.

If we die..we don't come back to life.(except if we are the creator of life...ie Jesus)

If we steal from someone..we are going to get put into jail..(at least if you are a minority or poor

These aren't merely opinions..these are facts my friend."

-

Those are all perceptions. Perceptions can be flawed. Hence they might be wrong. Hence they are not absolute. We only ASSUME they are.

And now you are twisting the whole point of this argument- which has been laid out for you neatly in this thread, if you had bothered to read it. Scientsits, of course, would NOT be total sceptics, otherwise they could not do their job. But the point is, when you try and use a scenario to try and logically prove absolutes, that scenario can simply be countered by someone invoking sceptcism. No matter how useless it is, or how childish you think it is, they can still do it. So your efforts are doomed.

Parallel universes, by the way, are a very serious area of study, and your contempt bounces off there as well. It's easy to see that you are scared of where modern science is leading- scared of the truth, perhaps?

And also, scepticism never claimed to give anyone any 'power' to do anything. It's just a point of view, is all. Your confusion as to why it doesn't seem to 'do' anything is simply a measure of your own very childish view of the nature of philosophy.

If you want to say that all the achievements of science would not be possible if we were all such sceptics... then yes, I agree with you, and I have made this point before. That doesn't change the point of using the scpetical view in this thread. I am glad, though, that you see the importance of taking these basic things for granted- perhaps you won't use them as evoidence that science is a 'faith' any more, as you tend to do so. By any meaningful definition, assuming these things that a sceptic doubts isn't enough to make something a 'faith' because without those assumptions we simply could not function at all.

lol..this argument has been won. Unless you can come up with substantive evidence that proves your position being something that can actually occur in the real world..it won't.

As far as the "faith" issue. Did someone say Parallel Universes are a serious area of study? How about aliens starting the big Bang and creating life on earth..that's a very plausible theory as well? Or how about travelling back in time..doesn't require much faith in theory at all does it..lol..and there is a lot of evidence to support it?

Come on now my friend..I think its clearly apparent which one of us would have to have the greater degree of FAITH to support our beliefs.

Fin

Originally posted by Atlantis001
You are only an observer, and everything you say is just your own believe, and perspective, you cannot "put words in God´s mouth", and start making absolute statements. Thats arrogance you know. [/B]

It's not my own belief..its the REALITY that we are all subjected to. Let's put it this way though. "God" is indeed capable of doing all these things that I have mentioned, because guess what..he created the REALITY which we exist in. He can do the impossible..while we can't. Our own perceptions have NO control over this REALITY...and that's where there is a fatal flaw in all of your arguments...

Regarding Ush's comment about me labeling him a RELATIVIST..what would you prefer that I call you Ush. You've admitted to Scientific theories being subjective..something that RELATIVIST'S do. Perhaps you should give me a better label..or perhaps you should be less sensitive to what's posted on the board. You have at many times..called people childish..called people cretin's..called people "IDIOTIC".. and DUMB within this thread and many others. I hardly believe that calling an individual a RELATIVIST is an insult..particularly when one compares it to the multiple INSULTING comments you have made throughout this and many other threads. Perhaps I should send a note to Raz..to send you a warning as well.

Fin

An example of one of USH'S INSULTS...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=379939&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=7

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's much funnier to watch you being eithee so dumb or so set on saying what you want to say as to not understand what is being said to you in the thread, seeing as all those points have been addressed.

This is but one of many you consistently post in these types of threads..and you get mad at me for using the term relativistic to describe your arguments. That's an adjective Ush..used to describe a certain type of thinking..its not an insult, and I will continue to use it to describe the arguments that are being presented before me in this thread..there is nothing wrong with doing that. I'm sending this post to Raz..so that he can get a clear view of your behavior..

Fin

Originally posted by whobdamandog
It's not my own belief..its the REALITY that we are all subjected to. Let's put it this way though. "God" is indeed capable of doing all these things that I have mentioned, because guess what..he created the REALITY which we exist in. He can do the impossible..while we can't. Our own perceptions have NO control over this REALITY...and that's where there is a fatal flaw in all of your arguments...

It is YOU who are saying that its not your believe, so its still you. It is the same as saying that : I believe that "its not my own believe".

I agree with you in that, we cannot control what is already determined, but nothing is determined. The train, or the balloon thing are only your belief, its you who think that they exist, but if they do exist objectively you will never know... objective balloons cannot be perceived, they are like santa claus, can´t be perceived.

Absolutes are not real, they can´t be perceived, they are like flying, santa claus, easter bunny, etc...

Real things are perceived, and everything which is perceived is also believed... You cannot deny that, you can´t say that something exist if you don´t believe in them.

Whob- do not abuse the report system like that.

And what you were doing was labelling me, perosnally, a relatavist, after I had taken the time to explain that I was not so, and then reminded you, more than once, to properly read the posts of others. Having directly ignored me on doing that several times, I made my comments.

You are starting to tread on thin once here, whob. I've told you how it is- have the courtesy to read posts properly. Childish behaviour like that report will only get you into trouble.

I'm not abusing the report system Ush. You clearly insulted me. It's not childish behavior Ush..its the truth..you continue to insult others..and then get mad when someone uses and adjective to describe your mode of thinking..stop with the insults..or I will continue to report you to an admin on a higher level. If you wish to discuss this argument with me any further about insults any further, speak with me through a private message. Otherwise..we will continue this discussion about the TOPIC of the thread which is about RELATIVISTIC thinking..and how illogical it is. Continue going off topic..and I will report you again.

Fin.

Meanwhile...

You say I have no credibility to support my arguments, But as far as the relatavist is concerned, that is only according to YOU, and who are you to dictate what does or does not make an argument? As it is, what was being argued there requires no proof at all, beause you can't prove a negative. It is a belief in the possibility of error in perception. That this is possible hardly needs to be proved at all.

-

Yes I can. I can send 30 people outside to jump out a window..and guess what. They'll all fall to the ground. That's "proof" of "gravity." Besides..you are getting into circular logic again..Wasn't it a wise man who once said "You can't prove a negative.." you can only prove a "positive"

-

To the first part... that's only proof if you believe in your perpceitons... for the thousandth time, those perceptions might be flawed.

To the second part- precisely. That's what I said, isn't it? You CAN'T prove it wrong precisely because you cannot pove a negative. Duh. You have simply affirmed what I said.

"The burden of proof would be on you"

No- that's only in scientific reasoning. Scepticism instead relies upon doubt. Science assumes things so that things have to be proven first.

"Their logic does not hold...because there is not credible evidence to support their theories. It's only possible..if one has demonstrated the ability for it to happen within the real world. This isn't the case my friend. Regardless of how many times you state it as being possible..it still doesn't make it possible"

Again, YOUR logic depends on perceptions that might be flawed and hence has no more basic right to be true than theirs. I can just turn around and say that no matter how many times you say it is impossible, that does not make it impossible. Everything you think is true and possible MIGHT be wrong. Again, perceptions can be flawed.

This isn't hard to see, you know. A person can be hypnotised or brainwashed into thinking a square has five sides or that 3 + 2 is 6. Just because they see it like that and think like that does not make what they think true. And if one person can be mistaken, it is possible that all are mistaken.

"PROOF Ush..give me PROOF. You have no PROOF supporting what you believe in. I do. So what does that tell us..which one of our arguments is valid? How would science have progressed over the years, if we had nothing tangible..or no evidence supporting it. Skepticism..does not negate the laws of reality..can't see how you guys can't understand this."

Again, I personally do NOT believe in it. This is a blatant example of you not having courtesy to read posts properly like I always tell you to do so; having just done yet, I am now issuing you with a formal warning. Stop that behaviour immediately.

Even if I did believe it... so what if there is no proof? It's only a belief. it doesn't need proof. Rather like religion, hmm?

But you still will not be able to knock down the logic that says that all you say here is simply a result of your own perceptions that might be flawed.

"this argument has been won"

Only in your mind- and people here don't have to be sceptics to know how flawed THAT is. As it is, nearly everyone reading this- in fact pretty much everyone except you- accepts what I say, and side against you. Your declarations of victory don't mean shit.

"Did someone say Parallel Universes are a serious area of study?"

Yes they are, and there is evidence.

"How about aliens starting the big Bang and creating life on earth?"

And... no, that's NOT a serious area. One is, one isn't. Clear enough for you? You do seem to have difficulty with such simple concepts.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I'm not abusing the report system Ush. You clearly insulted me. It's not childish behavior Ush..its the truth..you continue to insult others..and then get mad when someone uses and adjective to describe your mode of thinking..stop with the insults..or I will continue to report you to an admin on a higher level. If you wish to discuss this argument with me any further about insults any further, speak with me through a private message. Otherwise..we will continue this discussion about the TOPIC of the thread which is about RELATIVISTIC thinking..and how illogical it is. Continue going off topic..and I will report you again.

Fin.

Let me see here, whob, which one of us is the global mod and so has the right to decide when to reprimand in topic or not? And it's me, isn't it?

I am telling you right now, that was a mis-use of the report system. It was not even close to being a flame; you bring such comments upon yourself- and have made plenty of insulting comments of your own over time- and to try and report for that is ludicrous, and I think you will find that is the opinion of all the mods. Do not do it again.

And DO read other people's posts properly.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Let me see here, whob, which one of us is the global mod and so has the right to decide when to reprimand in topic or not? And it's me, isn't it?

I am telling you right now, that was a mis-use of the report system. It was not even close to being a flame; you bring such comments upon yourself- and have made plenty of insulting comments of your own over time- and to try and report for that is ludicrous, and I think you will find that is the opinion of all the mods. Do not do it again.

And DO read other people's posts properly.

You won't stay on topic once again..reported to Raz.

Fin

Whob- you've had your warnings. Carry on abusing the report system like that, and you will end up taking a few days off the board, ok?

Whob...I've read through these threads and no one has been insulting you.....

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Whob- you've had your warnings. Carry on abusing the report system like that, and you will end up taking a few days off the board, ok?

This topic is over. All of your post's will now be directly sent to Raz via PM..I don't like this little game your playing Ush..it's an abuse of power. And someone of your authority should not be playing it. Moving on. This discussion is over. Do not send me pm's or anything else, if you do so it will be deemed as harassing behavior.

On topic..

Moving on..what further evidence do any of you have to support your position

Ok, whob, as you insist on being immature like that, I will take my warnings to PM, and your opinion on their harrassing nature are pretty irrelevant because I am a global mod.

I have already explained the position about the relatavist argument to you just fine.

I'm with ush and his ideas on relativism

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I have already explained the position about the relatavist argument to you just fine.

You have provided no evidence to support an individual being able to defy the laws of gravity.

You have provided no evidence to support an individual being able to go without food/water for 3 months and survive.

You have provided no evidence to support an individual being able to go back in time.

You have provided no evidence to support parallel Universe's existing.

Therefore your argument is invalid, seeing how there is no substantive evidence used to support it.

Speculation/Perception does not = validity to one's argument. But you are welcome to believe that it does.