Stanley "Tookie" Williams

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
What I meant, is that if he stays alive, and gets released,
and continues to kill after he's released, then the first people who will be screaming "we should have never freed him" will be the ones who wanted us to free him in the first place because they bought his reform stories.

They yell "free the man" and then yell " I knew it we shoulda' never done it" when and if the person kills again on the outside.

Now in jail, yeah you can keep him, and what if he kills in jail? And if they continue to kill and present a threat to the guards and the general populace..you have to realize not every criminal is capable of reform.

The ones inside the jail, guard and inmate alike, are people too. They have a right to safety as well. And when you get these hardcore badasses who think a life is nothing, you're putting others in danger as well.

Wow, where to start. The first chunk of this quote deals with those who believe he should be freed, I'm not necessarily one of those. So it doesn't apply to me.

If it's a choice between the government protecting people outside of jail or the people inside, I'll choose outside. Moreover, how can you speak for the rights and safety of inmates and stand by the death penalty? That's not the safest option, death, is it?

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Yeah and the guards and the inmates have a right to be safe as well. How would you feel if you had a loved one or relative who was a jail guard, (say, your father for example) and you found out that he was killed by an inmate? Would it then be your case that 'whatever happens on the inside happens' or would you feel something had to be done?

Regardless of your accusations of "speaking for you" in an earlier thread, I don't think that there aren't too many people who would feel opposite the way you do if a loved one was taken away from them by someone else who was assumed to no longer be a threat to society.

My dad isn't stupid enough to want to be the guy who keeps dangerous people in check and has to subdue them if they get out of line, so I don't have that problem to worry about. Not saying those people deserve to be harmed, but that it's not exactly as though you don't know what you're in for by working there. It's like being a gardener on a minefield.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
If anything, in this case it was highly counter-productive if the man is/was now having a positive effect on society.

But, as I pointed out earlier, what better example could he make for those he wants to save from gangs...than being put to death?

I mean, if we want to pretend that anyone who is a prime target for becoming a gang member (inner city youths that don't do well in school, or life for that matter) will remember either him, the man, or what he did after being sent to jail...then we're fooling ourselves.

You know, let's just put it this way:

Jail and reform are a mutual deal. You do the time, and the system will do it's best to ensure you that jail is hell, and you'll want to reform and get the hell out as soon as possible.

If an inmate keeps his part of the deal, fine. he Should be rewarded when all possible proof has been exhaustively satisifed.

But to the ones who don't live up to their end, and continue their ways, the system has no promise, and the punishment is up to them.

There's no guarantee that you'll be set free, just as there is no guarantee that the inmate will change. Inside, or outside of prison, life is what you make it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

My dad isn't stupid enough to want to be the guy who keeps dangerous people in check and has to subdue them if they get out of line, so I don't have that problem to worry about. Not saying those people deserve to be harmed, but that it's not exactly as though you don't know what you're in for by working there. It's like being a gardener on a minefield.

-AC

So now law enforcement officers are stupid by protecting and serving?

I guess you should just go ahead and spit on the police, the peace officers, and others who serve and sometimes give their lives. And
you just said it..the fact that they know what they might be in for makes them even that more special, and a breed apart.

Impediment is a correction officer in Texas.
So now you just called him stupid too. Thanks for caring.

From the military to internal and external law enforcement, we are free and safe in our homes because of the exertions of men and women much better than we could ever be. So while you're not American, try showing respect for the people in your own backyard who give it all they have to keep people free everywhere, because they're the reason why you and I are here.

And you talk about respecting other people....

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
So now law enforcement officers are stupid by protecting and serving?

I guess you should just go ahead and spit on the police, the peace officers, and others who serve and sometimes give their lives. And
you just said it..the fact that they know what they might be in for makes them even that more special, and a breed apart.

Impediment is a correction officer in Texas.
So now you just called him stupid too. Thanks for caring.

From the military to internal and external law enforcement, we are free and safe in our homes because of the exertions of men and women much better than we could ever be. So while you're not American, try showing respect for the people in your own backyard who give it all they have to keep people free everywhere, because they're the reason why you and I are here.

And you talk about respecting other people....

I don't think that's what he's saying....

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
But, as I pointed out earlier, what better example could he make for those he wants to save from gangs...than being put to death?

I mean, if we want to pretend that anyone who is a prime target for becoming a gang member (inner city youths that don't do well in school, or life for that matter) will remember either him, the man, or what he did after being sent to jail...then we're fooling ourselves.

It wasn't based on reputation though, as I understand, he was actively helping.

The death penalty doesn't discourage crime at all, that's been factually proven countless times.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It wasn't based on reputation though, as I understand, he was actively helping.

The death penalty doesn't discourage crime at all, that's been factually proven countless times.

First, if it has been proven...then that's great. I'm less concerned with the death penalty preventing crime from others...as much as I am with it preventing crime from a single person. Namely, the guy being put down.

And by saying it prevents nothing, then you are kinda proving my point. The people who should be influenced by his execution will get no benefit from it...wheter he's offed or not.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
First, if it has been proven...then that's great. I'm less concerned with the death penalty preventing crime from others...as much as I am with it preventing crime from a single person. Namely, the guy being put down.

Well, obviously he can't commit crime from beyond the grave. He also can't while incarcerated- I suppose that comes down to a capital punishment argument again, which has been done to death, no pun intended.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic

And by saying it prevents nothing, then you are kinda proving my point. The people who should be influenced by his execution will get no benefit from it...wheter he's offed or not.

He was having an influence by being alive though- he was actively helping. I don't suggest they'll benefit from him being spared, but from the possible influence he had.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It wasn't based on reputation though, as I understand, he was actively helping.

The death penalty doesn't discourage crime at all, that's been factually proven countless times.

And while not on topic, Gun Bans and removal of personal firearm ownership does nothing to impact black market weapons or violent crime either. Scholars and law professors have proven that.

Banning alcohol did nothing-Prohibition was rolled by the Speak Easy's.

Back to Death Penalty. Maybe it dosen't discourage violent crime, but there have to be those out there who will think twice about it knowing it's the preferred option.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
And while not on topic, Gun Bans and removal of personal firearm ownership does nothing to impact black market weapons or violent crime either. Scholars and law professors have proven that.

Banning alcohol did nothing-Prohibition was rolled by the Speak Easy's.

Back to Death Penalty. Maybe it dosen't discourage violent crime, but there have to be those out there who will think twice about it knowing it's the preferred option.

That's not the case though, because crime isn't reduced by the death penalty. It's a baseless speculation. Nobody thinks twice because crime doesn't go down.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well, obviously he can't commit crime from beyond the grave. He also can't while incarcerated- I suppose that comes down to a capital punishment argument again, which has been done to death, no pun intended.

He was having an influence by being alive though- he was actively helping. I don't suggest they'll benefit from him being spared, but from the possible influence he had.

Look, I'm an eye for an eye kinda guy. The Bible can go stuff itself...but that was one good rule. It's kind of like "do unto others" for the pesimest

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Look, I'm an eye for an eye kinda guy. The Bible can go stuff itself...but that was one good rule. It's kind of like "do unto others" for the pesemist

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
So now law enforcement officers are stupid by protecting and serving?

I guess you should just go ahead and spit on the police, the peace officers, and others who serve and sometimes give their lives. And
you just said it..the fact that they know what they might be in for makes them even that more special, and a breed apart.

Impediment is a correction officer in Texas.
So now you just called him stupid too. Thanks for caring.

Oh not all this BS again. Look, I'm not gonna get into a multi-page convincing crusade with you again. I didn't call them stupid people, just said that I believe it's a stupid decision.

Think about it. You are consciously deciding to WORK IN A PRISON FULL OF DANGEROUS CRIMINALS. It's like sanding a piece of wood with your teeth. If your lips get burnt off, it's your own fault. Prison officers have the right to work in safety, sure. I'm not saying they don't, I'm just saying that you do semi-accept the possible eventuality of being in harm's way and suffering for it. It comes with working in a prison, dude. Not everyone in there is happy to be in there and happy to be bossed around by other men who can go home.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
From the military to internal and external law enforcement, we are free and safe in our homes because of the exertions of men and women much better than we could ever be.

No, sorry. I'm safe in my home because I'm in my home not putting myself in dangerous situations. End of story. If you want to put those people above you, do so. I'm not going to, so don't attempt to do so for me.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
So while you're not American, try showing respect for the people in your own backyard who give it all they have to keep people free everywhere, because they're the reason why you and I are here.

And you talk about respecting other people....

They make that choice (and it is a choice). They're not forced to. They know what they're getting into and they accept every possible consequence.

I'm not here because of anyone but my parents. Sorry to burst the unrealistic bubble you appear to be hiding in.

-AC

how do you spell pesimist..w/e

Pessimist.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
That's not the case though, because crime isn't reduced by the death penalty. It's a baseless speculation. Nobody thinks twice because crime doesn't go down.

But this does prove my point though with regard to Gun Bans and other certain laws...that the places with the toughest laws usually have the highest crime rates, because it's the law abiding citizen who has the burden placed upon them while the criminal usually goes unabated because the law dosen't apply to him. And it makes it easier for the criminal because he can now ply his trade with more accuracy and efficiency, knowing that something that could have been used to stop him is no longer in ownership by the private citizen.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Oh not all this BS again. Look, I'm not gonna get into a multi-page convincing crusade with you again. I didn't call them stupid people, just said that I believe it's a stupid decision.

Think about it. You are consciously deciding to WORK IN A PRISON FULL OF DANGEROUS CRIMINALS. It's like sanding a piece of wood with your teeth. If your lips get burnt off, it's your own fault. Prison officers have the right to work in safety, sure. I'm not saying they don't, I'm just saying that you do semi-accept the possible eventuality of being in harm's way and suffering for it. It comes with working in a prison, dude. Not everyone in there is happy to be in there and happy to be bossed around by other men who can go home.

No, sorry. I'm safe in my home because I'm in my home not putting myself in dangerous situations. End of story. If you want to put those people above you, do so. I'm not going to, so don't attempt to do so for me.

They make that choice (and it is a choice). They're not forced to. They know what they're getting into and they accept every possible consequence.

I'm not here because of anyone but my parents. Sorry to burst the unrealistic bubble you appear to be hiding in.

-AC

I'll buy part of your argument. Prisonofficers is not something that is
fun and enjoyable. But the courage of the person taking the job is something to be admired. DO you think YOU can do it?

No, sorry. I'm safe in my home because I'm in my home not putting myself in dangerous situations. End of story. If you want to put those people above you, do so. I'm not going to, so don't attempt to do so for me.

Yet you derive your safety from their everyday courage and sacrifices. Apparently you have no love for our heroes unless an enemy is at your gate.

Who comes to your house when you're in trouble? Police. When you're sick? Medics. When a foreign enemy is at your door? The military.

As far as you being here because of your parents, no shit Sherlock. Throw us a bone here will ya'? Seems to me that you have little concern for others outside of yourself, and if you want to be a selfish go ahead. Police and military as just as resp. for our safety as well.

Is a foreign enemy occupying your soil? Is your street safe? Do you have to worry about getting mugged whenever you go out? NO? Then thank the ones who made it possible instead of being a selfish bastard.

I hate to burst YOUR unrealistic bubble but you owe other people for your daily freedom.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
But this does prove my point though with regard to Gun Bans and other certain laws...that the places with the toughest laws usually have the highest crime rates, because it's the law abiding citizen who has the burden placed upon them while the criminal usually goes unabated because the law dosen't apply to him. And it makes it easier for the criminal because he can now ply his trade with more accuracy and efficiency, knowing that something that could have been used to stop him is no longer in ownership by the private citizen.

Ok. Although I wasn't actually trying to refute that point.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Ok. Although I wasn't actually trying to refute that point.

Gotcha 🙂

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Gotcha 🙂

Although to be fair, having guns at all doesn't help.