Sideous vs. exar k'un

Lightsnake is nonsensical.

"A Sidious fan could counter this by saying Sidious masked himself from the Jedi for a decade when they were vigiliantly hunting for them."

And Kun -waltzed onto Ossus (The Jedi planet)- as the Dark Lord of the Sith, murdered a Jedi Master, and took twenty knights with him to Yavin IV without anyone suspecting him.

"But accomplishments? Sidious takes that hands down"

Accomplishments mean nothing in a debate on who would win in a fight. Sidious did none of that by fighting anyone.

"Kun only ever fights two people:"

Oh, I guess he didn't fight Ulic. And he didn't blast away Aleema with a wave of his hand. And he didn't kill Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand. Nor did he curbstomp Ood. (It's irrelevant that Ood was hit by a massassi, Ood knew he was beaten anyway.)

"Vodo is the one he kills, mainly because Vodo is fighting to subdue him."

Frankly that's bullshit. Perhaps he missed the two-page monologue Vodo had about having to stop Exar Kun. Vodo was not and did not intend to fight to subdue Kun. He fought to stop him.

"Admittedly he's weaker at the time Sylvar fights him and the fight is inconclusive-Kun gets scarred, that's when it ends."

Yes, he gets scarred when Sylvar gives in to instinctive rage, i.e. THE DARK SIDE.

"He didn't create his own dueling style either, Makashi was already around."

Excuse me, but how the hell was Kun using Makashi with a freaking double-bladed lightsaber? Answer: He wasn't. There is no style like Kun's.

"In Kun's time there hadn't been in a war in 1000 years and Kun was the one to revive the Sith."

I guess there was no Freedon Nadd uprising then. Huh, that must've been a bad dream. How about the Krath, dip? Oh wait, must've forgotten about them, that's it. Or about the references to a Coruscant droid rebellion that Arca lived and fought through, huh? What a fanboy.

"Kun was also, most people neglect to mention, a terrible coward. He was screaming and sobbing when the Jedi imprisoned him in Yavin's temple. And the only Jedi who are actually shown to work against him are Tott, Thon, Nomi and Oss Willum."

Unbelievable lies.

He wasn't screaming, sobbing, or otherwise. His exact words were, "My spirit will live forever! Forever!" And he was SMILING!

Doesn't sound like a frightened man to me.

As well, his last line is a flat-out, bald-faced LIE.

"The wall of light generated by many Jedi becomes a crushing blow for the Light side of the Force, etc etc."

In the same panel are shown some of the ships of all of the Jedi in the Galaxy. Elsewhere are references to the fact that all the Jedi in the galaxy were present.

"What Kun did was not in the heart of the Jedi order. He walked in because noone else knew who he was and killed Vodo not as easily as one would say. And he had the entire strength of Mandalore and MAssassi backing him up. Not only that, he failed to freeze the Jedi who proceeded to kill his Massassi. For a moment, Kun was fully afraid when he saw Sylvar in a rage."

More lies. He waltzed into the Senate like he owned the place, killed the Chancellor and Vodo, rescued Ulic, and the Jedi were impotent to stop him. Of the Mandalorian warriors, only Mandalore himself was present. The Massassi were irrelevant too, they were only shown getting killed by Sylvar and not doing much else. And to say Kun was afraid of Sylvar is RIDICULOUS.

"Exar Kun remembers the scar Sylvar gave him... but the Cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him..." (Emphasis mine).

Huh. Some fear, jackass. Later he blasts her away, again, with wave of his hand and causes her to weep. Some fear.

"Kun didn't learn anything from Ossus himself. He arrived to take trophies there and Ood bested him. When he killed that beast and Nadd, he was wearing Sadow's gauntlet, which amplifies the darksie quite a bit, being created by the best of the Ancient Sith, before Sadow's birth. He also caught Nadd well off guard when Nadd thought Kun was going to help him."

More flat-out bullshit. I guess that's why the narrator says, "Looking at all the precious Jedi artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use." In the panel are scrolls, books, and other artifacts.

Ood didn't best him by the way. Ood was bested in combat and had to enter the next stage of his lifecycle to prevent Kun from stealing some ancient lightsabers. When you consider that entering that stage trapped him on Ossus for the conflagration, it's not a victory to me.

And so what if he was wearing Sadow's gauntlet? As if that's a detriment? I hope Lightsnake realizes that the gauntlet allowed him to literally cast beams of energy from his hand, which ripped through yards of the beast's flesh. Lightning has nothing on that.

And how exactly could it be Sadow's amulet if Sadow didn't create it? Sounds like speculative bullshit to me. And it's rather hard to argue that Nadd was caught off guard, seeing how Kun said to him things such as, "I'm not your son" "Freedon Nadd, I've had enough of you guiding me, testing me..." and "Power? Yes... there is power..."

"Unlike Kun, Sidious could exist outside of flesh and retain his powers and sanity. Very much unlike Kun, Sidious could possess other bodies as well. Sidious scarred the galaxy far worse than Kun in the long run. Sidious, in his full run takes this."

Yeah, let's see Sidious exist the way Kun was forced to for four thousand damned years! What a dip Lightsnake is. He assumes that Kun couldn't possess other bodies, when that's exactly what Kun desired in the end in the JA trilogy. Sidious loses plain and simple. DE Sidious puts up an admirable fight, but he is no match for Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, before I forget: Lucas didn't want his characters becoming overpowered superheroes. Same reason as why this Qui-Gon guy is training Obi-wan.

Who says Sidious wasn't trying to stall for time with Mace? And Yoda surprised him, he was overconfident-his big, big failing and didn't realize Yoda's power. It wasn't in Kun's nature to enter a scenario where he didn't hold all the cards and the same goes for Sidious. When Kun is finally bested, he was reduced to little more than a sobbing child. Sidious's final words are to curse Luke and the Skywalkers.

As for the over powered bit, well I admit that they are overpowered, however, like I said above, you have to go with what is given, and they do have great power.

As for who says Sidious didn't throw the fight with Mace, well since you are making the claim, you must back it up. The burden of proof is on you. Occam's Razor.

About Yoda surprising him, possible, however, who says Kun cannot do the same? Sidious will not know what to expect from Kun and may underestimate him, thus causing his downfall.

As for Kun sobbing, maybe he was trying to do the same thing that Sidious did when Anakin ran into the room and saw Mace over Sidious, trying to get sympathy and have someone join him. As for why Sidious didn't do it again, he knew that it would not work, nobody had any symptathy for him. Kun knew he was facing children and may have been trying to play to their childish feelings about how everyone can be redeemed.

1. Odan-Urr was a wise Jedi, but he was a weak fighter. When Kun killed him, he was noticeably wearing his power enhancing Sith gauntlets. Kun never used a saber on him, he wasn't using mind powers on the young Jedi, either....he convinced them Sadow's traces were around on Yavin 4. He also let the Sith spirits in a holocron possess them. Crado was the only one who followed but, c'mon, Crado was a flippin' moron...

2. Sidious toppled the Order, had it exterminating and took the Republic, that's more than Kun ever did. Kun also did what he did while wearing those gauntlets, noticeably enhancing his power manyfold when he killed that giant monster. More to the point there, he was unable to beat Ulic. Ragnos stopped the fight. Kun doesn't ebat Sylvar, either. He screams at her for clawing him, then Vader smacks his saber from his hand. I forgot Ulic, but the duel was as stalemate as you get...As for Ood Bnar, a Massassi blindsided him while he and Kun faced off.

3. Kun didn't take the Republic. He didn't nearly do so. His only involvement in the war was the last cover battle to steal Ood's lightsabers-he failed at that and to save Ulic. Ulic started the war against Kun's wishes, firmly against them. Uliuc's forces were beaten into the ground as well...the Republic never came close to falling. Onderon wiped out Ulic's Mandalorians and the Krath...all Kun had left were the Massassi when Ulic double crossed him. He never actively participated as commander and Ulic screwed up plenty. Two small battles followed by defeat after defeat do not a succesful campaign make. In ACCOMPLISHMENT, Sidious takes it.

4. Ok, let's blame the CGI team and Lucas for a very poor shoot on the Mace fight and not Sidious. It's worth noting Vodo was trying to subdue and not kill, he'd just fought a practically legion of Massassi warriors and he knew somehow he'd face Kun as a spirit. Kun was at his best and Vodo was less so.

5. Kun was indeed a coward. He begged and pleaded for his life on several occasions and when he was about to die, he became a cringing, sobbing child. During the Ulic thing, noone knew who he was until he arrived on the Senate and he left Massassi to make sure he could escape. It's worth noting he was only thought of as a random Jedi, with his ship parked right outside and the Mandalorians backing him up in orbit. And as for that fear statement. When Sylvar tears his Massassi apart barehanded, Kun touches the scars she gave him and feels a small twinge before he regains himself and-rightly-reminds himself she's of no consequence. And until Kun pulled out his dual lightsaber, Vodo is matching him.

6. Sidious is never mentioned, hinted or stated to use a Kaiburr crystal. We see him in open robes at one point and it's not on him, this when he makes the force storm. He never uses a kaiburr crystal...he never even got one.

7. The Massassi numbered in the hundreds at best and they WILLINGLY gave up their life...and Kun, as I said, was using Sadow's obelisk, built for just that purpose of draining them

8. Ragnos never said Kun earned a place amongst them, Sidious was the only since Ragnos himself to earn such an honor. At that time, Sidious's mind was fading, his body was dying...thanks to the faulty clone, even a strong emotion, never mind the force use could kill the clone's weak heart. He needed their guidance because time was of the essence. He used the quickest route availible and noone could fault him for that. Kun's star system stunt was not Kun, Exar was nowhere near the system at that point. Aleema was using Sadow's ship and Kun neglected to mention the supernova that'd result-again, Crado's a flippin' moron, Aleema's not so bright herself- and it killed about seven birds with one stone...it's worth noting though that there wasn't a single casualty on Ossus, the Jedi evacuated it.

Lastly, Gantoris' death is etchy, but it was Kyp who wrenched Luke out and Luke didn't want to hurt Kyp and knew the only way to confront Kun was on his own turf....Kun was bound to the Yavin temple, explaining his existence, a veritable stew of Darkside Energy...and Ragnos lost thanks to that idiot Tavion.

Anyone mind if I ignore Ven btw? He's little else but rude and insulting.

Well sorry but I can't respond right now, I got to go to bed and tomorrow I am visiting relatives so I will be gone for several days. We can pick this up when I get back. Later

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
As for the over powered bit, well I admit that they are overpowered, however, like I said above, you have to go with what is given, and they do have great power.

As for who says Sidious didn't throw the fight with Mace, well since you are making the claim, you must back it up. The burden of proof is on you. Occam's Razor.

About Yoda surprising him, possible, however, who says Kun cannot do the same? Sidious will not know what to expect from Kun and may underestimate him, thus causing his downfall.

As for Kun sobbing, maybe he was trying to do the same thing that Sidious did when Anakin ran into the room and saw Mace over Sidious, trying to get sympathy and have someone join him. As for why Sidious didn't do it again, he knew that it would not work, nobody had any symptathy for him. Kun knew he was facing children and may have been trying to play to their childish feelings about how everyone can be redeemed.

1. The proof for MAce/Sidious is impossible one way or the other. There's evidence, but I don't wish to bring up that debate here. In a saber duel, Kun would take it.

2. Sidious is far intune with the Dark Side. While a Jedi could hide himself, a Sith could not...and can we make this fight SOMEwhat fair? Wouldn't be too right is, since it's Sidious, Kun's tampered with Krath droids blast him through the back, and then the room detonates...Sidious, when it comes to other Sith NEVER underestimates them. He tells that to Vader when relating how he killed Plageuis. He took the safe road out there, same as Kun did with Nadd. Plagueis learned what Palpatine thought his strength to undermine him, what he loved so to take away, what he wanted to deny him, what he feared to force him to face....Ragnos-or another Ancient Sith says Sidious, long ago, gave up everything to the Dark Side. Kun's arrogance was also his flaw, he'd be more likely to underestimate Sidious.

3. Kun was most certainly not trying for sympathy. Vodo said he'd been laid bare and there was noone around to plead to. He'd tried with everyone-all of whom were adults. He realized the futility of his existence, and was terrified of the void.

I will neglect to point out that in the DE sorucebook, Sidious is stated as the strongest Sith of all time. I'd rather make this a fair debate.

And Ven, why don't you just shut your damn mouth. You do nothing but make yourself appear an arrogant moron.

I'll address some of his points though:

1. Miss where Kun said if Vodo'd win, he'd allow Vodo to take him back?

2. Kun uses Makashi, confirmed. Does it matter what weapon you use for a saber style? Maul used form VII and he had a double blade

3. Oh, the KRath....well, you arrogant *******, except for Satal and Aleema, they weren't Force Users, and NAdd wasn't a Sith. Self admitted not a Sith. Denied by Sadow.

4. Wow, was that 'I'll live forever' before or AFTER the Jedi crushed him? According to the Jedi academy trilogy, he wasn't too happy when that was going on in his memories.

5. Wow, you mean the stuff Nadd stole off Sadow's CORPSE when Sadow refused to make him Sith? And it's 'Sadow's.' Because 'Sadow OWNED' it. See?

6. Yes, when Sidious is specifically bound a certain place and unable to touch the Force for 4000 years, going insane in isolation...And Kun is sort of, y'know, REPELLED In Champions of the Force. That is the last time I'll ever give you a direct answer, Ven. Sod off

See you, whenever Darkstar. great debating with you

Yeah, I'm going to be labeled a 'dip' and a Sidious-fanboy too, but I'm beyond the point of caring or trying to refute. I could call you all Ragnos fanboys for declaring 'him' the most powerful Sith. Oddly enough, there's no proof for it. So, take in stride and neglect the usage of insults.

Darkstar, you are out of your mind of you think Kun would ever own Sidious. If this is DE Sidious we're talking about, especially.

1. DE Sidious could create Force Storms capable of wiping out fleets.

2. DE Sidious could create Force Storms to kill individual people.

3. DE Sidious could create Force Storms to teleport people across the galaxy.

4. DE Sidious can wield Force Lightning that mortally wounds its victim after a short succession.

5. Sidious (DE?) was quoted to be "on a higher level than Exar Kun", by Exar Kun's creator, Kevin J. Anderson.

6. Sidious was labeled as "the most powerful of us" by the Ancient Sith Lord spirits on Korriban.

7. It took the combined Force attunement of three Skywalkers to take him out (and this was only temporary).

If this is ROTS Sidious, then Sidious gets owned. Badly. But otherwise, he takes Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Ven, why don't you just shut your damn mouth. You do nothing but make yourself appear an arrogant moron.

Well I am an arrogant moron...

No but seriously to get pissed at someone over a fictional character is pretty stupid and I apologize.

Really your a much better debater than most of the crap that comes through here. So lets just forget any previous insults and move on and agree to disagree.

About Vodo, even if he did want to kill Exar there is little he could have done to wound him with a walking stick, so it's pretty safe to say he was on the defencive all the time, he couldent have killed him with it. (unless I've missed something).

Escape, there is proof for Ragnos being th most powerful Sith of all time.

what's that proof, Traya? An obscure quote by Kreia and random memorial services by the Sith? What did you ever SEE Ragnos do? What has he ever been witnessed doing?

Ragnos, in all his living glory, has NEVER been seen in Star Wars, not once.

And as for Vodo....it's worth noting his way of teaching his student anger and violence were wrong was to beat the hell out of him...And both exar and Vodo had issues on keeping hold of their apprentices

Originally posted by Lightsnake
what's that proof, Traya? An obscure quote by Kreia and random memorial services by the Sith? What did you ever SEE Ragnos do? What has he ever been witnessed doing?

Ragnos, in all his living glory, has NEVER been seen in Star Wars, not once.

And as for Vodo....it's worth noting his way of teaching his student anger and violence were wrong was to beat the hell out of him...And both exar and Vodo had issues on keeping hold of their apprentices

No, but the blurb to the TOTJ comics does add some stuff about him. He was a "god amongst gods" he was "the dark lord[/i].

Not only that, look at the amount of power Tavion wielded with his sceptre. If a weakling like that can amass that much of power, then Ragnos could obliterate pretty much anyone.

Considering the competence level of those other 'Gods', that's not much an achievment. The Ancient Sith we're shown are nothing more than a bunch of inept dolts. Ragnos may've been great but he was the only one and quotes ain't working to prove a thing here. How do those Sith screw up? Lots and lots of fun ways

And imbued artifacts aren't really the best measure of someone's power