Day of vengeance

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know that we all know that, the point is the title Lucifer hasnt featured any DC hero in whatsoever, makes no reference to there having been a multiverse, the departure of Yahweh has had cataclysmic effects across the Presences creation (which would be the main DC universe if if was in continuity) and yet none of this has been referred to in any DC comic ive read. Similarly Infinite Crisis hasnt been mentioned or had any discernible effect on the main creation (which would be the main DC universe) in the Lucifer title. With all that in mind the Lucifer series is not in continuity. It may have the Lucifer character but that character is being used in a seperate non canon title.

I really don't think so. I think that's just Mike Carey going, "holy shit, this Infinite Crisis stuff is stupid" and ignoring it--which is probably his best possible response. That type of stuff happens; do you also maintain that Sandman isn't in continuity, since none of the "sleeping sickness" stuff that happened when Morpheus was locked up was references in other DCU titles? (if so, you at least get points for consitancy, I guess).

Originally posted by Gregory
I really don't think so. I think that's just Mike Carey going, "holy shit, this Infinite Crisis stuff is stupid" and ignoring it--which is probably his best possible response. That type of stuff happens; do you also maintain that Sandman isn't in continuity, since none of the "sleeping sickness" stuff that happened when Morpheus was locked up was references in other DCU titles? (if so, you at least get points for consitancy, I guess).

I never said that Sandman wasnt continuity. If you read the entire thread particularly my interaction with Yahman you'll see i have only been referring to the Lucifer title. I was wrong to generalise but as you can see from my posts ive only been referring to Lucifer.

As for your point about the sleeping sickness thing its hardly on the same level as Infinite Crisis or the supreme being abandoning creation such events would certainly be mentioned across board if they were in the same continuity. The sleeping sickness not being mentioned in other DC titles stands to reason just as much as the X-mens problems (even if theyre global) rarely crossover into Avengers or F4. Its something that the team can handle and it doesnt necessitate a crossover. The likes of IC and the Yahweh situation are a whole different ball game.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Precisely!! Theres hope for you yet 😉

No, i always agree with common sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!

There you go again GS acting like this! I never once said any of this was truth, just merely debating the topic as you yourself have done! I wouldn't think the Multiverse would be talked about in Lucifer, its a Lucifer comic, with other matters that he would seem more important to not even care about the Crisis... And Lucifer comic has already been written and actually done for years way before Infinite Crisis was thought of, its not like they just came up with all of these ideas in 6 months or so. And there is NO Multiverse in Elaines Creation at all, its just 1 Universe, 1 Earth (Yahwehs), all they did was open the 2 gateways big enough so both of Lucifers creation and The Presence Creation could fall into hers, and expanding her creation as well.

Another point is if Lucifer isn't in DC/Vertigo Continuity then why was Duma and Remiel ruling Hell in Lucifer when in Sandman they are shown to be ruling it after Lucifer left??? That in itself points to Lucifer being in DC/Vergito Continuity.. Try to remember we are only debating and i'm not claiming anything.. Hate when ppl act like they have something to prove. ❌ not good GS.

Originally posted by kevdude
There you go again GS acting like this! I never once said any of this was truth, just merely debating the topic as you yourself have done! I wouldn't think the Multiverse would be talked about in Lucifer, its a Lucifer comic, with other matters that he would seem more important to not even care about the Crisis... And Lucifer comic has already been written and actually done for years way before Infinite Crisis was thought of, its not like they just came up with all of these ideas in 6 months or so. And there is NO Multiverse in Elaines Creation at all, its just 1 Universe, 1 Earth (Yahwehs), all they did was open the 2 gateways big enough so both of Lucifers creation and The Presence Creation could fall into hers, and expanding her creation as well.

Another point is if Lucifer isn't in DC/Vertigo Continuity then why was Duma and Remiel ruling Hell in Lucifer when in Sandman they are shown to be ruling it after Lucifer left??? That in itself points to Lucifer being in DC/Vergito Continuity.. Try to remember we are only debating and i'm not claiming anything.. Hate when ppl act like they have something to prove. ❌ not good GS.

Sharing past events with Sandman, events which were detailed many many years ago is not conclusive proof especially when you consider nothing else from that point onwards is shared as far as has been revealed plus all of the aforementioned reasons that have been discussed in this thread.

The purpose of these forums is to debate about all matters regarding comics. Anything anyone posts is up for debate. Thats the very nature of a forum. If you feel you cant handle someone disagreeing with your point of view then i hate to tell ya mate but a forum really isnt the place for you. ❌

You posted something, i disagreed with it and posted an opposing view. There was no malice to it. Thats what happens on forums. Deal with it. Or dont post. Noone else is crying because i disagreed with their view.

How very disappointing. 🙁

wow that took some major ego to put all that together gs lol. dont tell me what forums are for when you yourself don't even begin to understand what I wrote in these posts.... Its fine to debate in forums, thats what ther FOR!!!!!! But you wasn't at all debating anything, you was trying to correct me when >you< thought I said it was all true. What i said, was merely saying how DC/Vertigo MIGHT have it set up, understand GS??? 🙂 I didn't think I actually had to spell it out for you. Don't try to correct me when u can't understand whats been posted!

Disappointed in you GS thought u was more open to ideas even if it might or might not still be true, we can hopefully still talk about it without having you say "well its never been shown for a few Years so we don't know if it could still be that way". ❌ so by your logic since we haven't seen oh say "Kismet" (whos been killed by Imperiex Prime in 2001) for a few years we have no idea if its in current DC/Vergito Continuity, see GS it works both ways

Iit does !!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All speculation and still no conclusive evidence for you to treat it as the truth in debate.

Have you though that Lucifer could have been referring to hell?

Theres no evidence whatsoever to claim that the Lucifer title is part of the Dc continuity. Not once has a multiverse been mentioned in the title (Obviously theres one now with Lucifer and Elaines own recently made creations), Crisis on Infinite Earths hasnt been referred to once and nor has the more recent Infinite Crisis which could hardly be ignored. None of the DC heroes have been featured in the title and Gods absence and the subsequent affects of that as shown in Lucifer hasnt been referred to at all in any DC title. It all points to them being seperate in terms of continuity just like Marvel and Maxx. Until its conclusively stated to be the case you cant claim it so.

Originally posted by Gregory
Lucifer is a character from Gaiman's Sandman, which includes at various points the Martian Manhunter, Dr. Destiny, the demon Etirgan, Batman, and Mr. Miracle, and is therefore in DC continuity.

Edit: I just remembered that Lucifer appears briefly in Ennis' Demon series, which wasn't Vertigo.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know that we all know that, the point is the title Lucifer hasnt featured any DC hero in whatsoever, makes no reference to there having been a multiverse, the departure of Yahweh has had cataclysmic effects across the Presences creation (which would be the main DC universe if if was in continuity) and yet none of this has been referred to in any DC comic ive read. Similarly Infinite Crisis hasnt been mentioned or had any discernible effect on the main creation (which would be the main DC universe) in the Lucifer title. With all that in mind the Lucifer series is not in continuity. It may have the Lucifer character but that character is being used in a seperate non canon title.

Lucifer's creation and elaine's creation are meant to be diffferent to all of that. But most of vertigo is still in continuity with DC; it's just written for more mature audiences.

And yes, the reason why the COIE hasnt been mentionned in lucifer is that lucifer is concerned with things much more important than that, and couldnt care less about the COIE. It doesnt necesseraly mean that he is not in continuity with the DCU just because he doesnt mention the COIE. He doesnt mention superman either, but that isnt proof that he does not exist the same continuity as superman

Originally posted by kevdude
wow that took some major ego to put all that together gs lol. dont tell me what forums are for when you yourself don't even begin to understand what I wrote in these posts.... Its fine to debate in forums, thats what ther FOR!!!!!! But you wasn't at all debating anything, you was trying to correct me when >you< thought I said it was all true. What i said, was merely saying how DC/Vertigo MIGHT have it set up, understand GS??? 🙂 I didn't think I actually had to spell it out for you. Don't try to correct me when u can't understand whats been posted!

This is really juvenile. You presented an idea you didnt have to claim it was true, but the moment you presented it, you have to accept that its up for debate. Its in the public domain. I read what you had to say, didnt agree with it so i posted my view which to your horror didnt embrace your half baked theory.

For someone so clued up on how a forum works i find it most confusing to see you stressing over standard forum practice. Do you really expect people to not comment on things they read on a forum. If you cherish your ideas to the extent where anything but praise and embracement for them is gonna leave you booing then as aforementioned keep them to yourself.

Everyone else here is debating. In fact the new poster Gregory brought up some good points and we were going back and forth. Youre the one who came in, ignored all of that saw that i disagreed with your post and felt perturbed enough to comment on it. I never said you were at that moment saying it was 100% true but you didnt have to be saying that. It was an idea that I and evidently others dont agree with, so i posted a conflicting argument and as aforementioned sparked off a debate on the issue. Isnt debating what forums are about? 😕

Originally posted by kevdude
Disappointed in you GS thought u was more open to ideas even if it might or might not still be true, we can hopefully still talk about it without having you say "well its never been shown for a few Years so we don't know if it could still be that way". ❌ so by your logic since we haven't seen oh say "Kismet" (whos been killed by Imperiex Prime in 2001) for a few years we have no idea if its in current DC/Vergito Continuity, see GS it works both ways

We have been talking about the ideas. By disagreeing with the idea you put forward, ive brought about a debate on it. People who agree have posted their ideas on why they thinks its true and people with opposing views have posted theirs or simply agreed me. Youre the only one who has taken it personally.

As for your point about Kismet, im not referring to DC here im talking about the Lucifer title. Kismet hasnt been mentioned in the title at all so yes, who is to say she exists in the cosmos they have in the Lucifer title? Plus theres the fact that she was featured in the canon Avengers/JLA crossover anyway so bit of a moot point.

All im saying is that by appearances (all the points brought up so far) it seems more likely that Lucifer isnt within DC continuity. If you can bring to the table evidence which conclusively shows otherwise then thats cool. No probs.

You just need to understand that anything you post be it an idea or a comment is placed in the public arena and is freely available to be commented on or scrutinised by any and everyone. Would you really expect people having read your ideas to keep quiet for fear of upsetting you? If thats the case then id hate to go on a forum where youre the moderator. 🙁

Originally posted by eleveninches
lucifer' has featured: archangel michael, the source, the prescence, all of which have been seen in the DCU.
Also, lucifer has referred to the multiverse at one time or another. But most of the time, the writers avoided the issue by referring to yahweh's 'creation' , which is meant to encompass all of :
the multiverse,
universe,
heaven,
hell,
purgetory,
the dreaming,
death's realm,
fourth world,
godworld (1st world),
mansions of silence,
rock of eternity,
dr fates tower,
all pocket dimentions,
vanishing point,
asgard,
olympus,
the source wall,
elseworlds,
hypertime,
(in all 10 dimentions and both positive matter and anti-matter universes for precrisis, postcrisis and pre-krona realities).

Including all of those things doesnt equate to a multiverse. Multiverses are multiple universes, alot of those things you've mentioned are other dimensions which is different. They would all be within a single universe.

Also the writer hasnt avoided the issue by just referring to Yahwehs creation, because Yahwehs creation has more often than not also been refered to as Yahwehs universe. In Lucifer all three of them have(or at least had) a universe not a multiverse.(Now of course with Lucifer and Yahwehs universe added to her own Elaine now has a multiverse)

Originally posted by eleveninches
And yes, the reason why the COIE hasnt been mentionned in lucifer is that lucifer is concerned with things much more important than that, and couldnt care less about the COIE. It doesnt necesseraly mean that he is not in continuity with the DCU just because he doesnt mention the COIE. He doesnt mention superman either, but that isnt proof that he does not exist the same continuity as superman

Well isnt all of the above just speculation? Could the reason major events in both series havent been mentioned be because theyre not in the same continuity? See it goes both ways.

Im not opposed to the idea, dont get me wrong. Id just need to see alot more evidence prior to accepting that its the case.

He said "Creation" consists of all those, GS, not a multiverse. Check it again.

And uhh, Lucifer is "Straight out of the pages of Sandman." which seems DC continuity, given that Sandman had met or seen so many of DC's characters. Other than that, although I haven't gotten through all my issues yet, I've really not seen anything else linking it.

Originally posted by Juntai
He said "Creation" consists of all those, GS, not a multiverse. Check it again.

""lucifer has referred to the multiverse at one time or another. But most of the time, the writers avoided the issue by referring to yahweh's 'creation' , which is meant to encompass all of :
the multiverse, ""

So basically hes saying both that the writer says "Yahwehs creation" as opposed to saying multiverse and hes saying that Yahwehs creation when stated on panel is referring to the multiverse and all of those other dimensions. Hmmm.

My point is that its made clear in Lucifer that Yahwehs creation is actually a universe. So what hes saying isnt correct. A multiverse is never referred to in Lucifer, its actually stated that Yahwehs own creation is a universe. So his previous post was incorrect. Even in the mainstream DC universe Yahweh never created a multiverse, that was down to Krona as detailed in Crisis on I E. Yahwehs creation has always been a universe. Lucifer has never referred to a multiverse in his title.

On the other hand, Elaines creation is now a multiverse because it encompasses her original cosmos along with Yahwehs and Lucifers.

Originally posted by Juntai
And uhh, Lucifer is "Straight out of the pages of Sandman." which seems DC continuity, given that Sandman had met or seen so many of DC's characters. Other than that, although I haven't gotten through all my issues yet, I've really not seen anything else linking it.

Just for curisoitys sake. How are people deciding Sandman is mainstream continuity? Is it just because the characters from it appear in DC? If thats the case then thats not conclusive. Do they actually make reference to events which happened in Sandman whilst in DC? If thats not the case then theres insufficient evidence.

I actually want to find out whether Vertigo is continuity or not so people dont get frustrated because im not agreeing with you or because im trying to pick holes in your arguments. Its just in an effort to find out the truth.

Unless characters from Vertigo who appear in DC actually make reference to events which happened in Vertigo in DC then its not conclusively canon. The DC versions could be based on the characters from Vertigo for example.

It seems quite obvious Sandman is at least, as pointed out,

"Sandman (For Gaimans run) has appeared as recently as the last JSA title."

And:
"Gaiman's Sandman, which includes at various points the Martian Manhunter, Dr. Destiny, the demon Etirgan, Batman, and Mr. Miracle"

just a page back

And Lucifer is a spinoff of Sandman's comic.

Although I dunno..

-shrugs-

I'd kinda like to know for sure as well.

Likewise it would seem Books of Magic vertigo book may also be in continuity, given that it was strongly influenced by DC's magic wielders.

Sandman is in continuity. Anyone remember the issue where Dream met Martian Manhunter?

I liked it.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Sandman is in continuity. Anyone remember the issue where Dream met Martian Manhunter?

I liked it.

Ahhhh thanks for the reminder!! But then does that then translate into Lucifer being continuity. Is Lucifer based on the character who appeared in Sandman or is it actually the same one? Hmmmm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ahhhh thanks for the reminder!! But then does that then translate into Lucifer being continuity. Is Lucifer based on the character who appeared in Sandman or is it actually the same one? Hmmmm

"From the pages of Sandman...
LUCIFER"