2005 movies : The Excellent, The OK, and the Bad

Started by Cinemaddiction3 pages

Originally posted by BackFire
Most Hollywood critics would disagree with you about Bill Murray, in fact, most anybody who can see the subtly in his performances would disagree with you. His brilliance lies not in his ability to read lines for dialogue, it lies in his ability to say more with simple facial expressions and his eyes then most actors can with their eyes/face/voices.

Just because most of his roles in recent films are similar doesn't mean he's a bad actor, there's many actors who have similar roles and are recognized as some of the best - Jack Nicholson, Philip Seymore Hoffman, Denzel Washington, just to name a few. Obviously, he isn't a hack since he's getting mounds of critical praise with his last few films, he's more popular now then he's ever been, just in a different light.

Critics are biased, careful, and touchy, especially with independent filmmakers, because that's where the new blood comes from. So, anyone who wants to be taken as a serious, well respected critic, isn't going to ride Jim Jaramusch or Wes Anderson, or dare knock Bill Murray who's being heralded as the next Buster Keaton. I never said Bill Murray was a hack, though, I just said he can't make the grade in Hollywood, which he hasn't been for years, and why he's being courted by these "eclectic" indie filmmakers, the likes of which I personally can't stand.

My point is, he isn't acting. He's going through the motions, and I think he has everyone fooled in the movies where he's merely playing himself, in the same token, stereotyping his last days in cinema. I hate the fact that people find "entertainment" in movies starring people that are cashing in on what some consider relatability in sadness, but what I call showing up for a paycheck, playing yourself.

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Originally posted by Nevermind
Like I said before, they could have planted them there thousands of years before human's created some sort of civilisation. We would be none the wise in the 21st Century.

That's what I said earlier, and if that's the case, why didn't they take the Earth then..?

Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
Critics are biased, careful, and touchy, especially with independent filmmakers, because that's where the new blood comes from. So, anyone who wants to be taken as a serious, well respected critic, isn't going to ride Jim Jaramusch or Wes Anderson, or dare knock Bill Murray who's being heralded as the next Buster Keaton. I never said Bill Murray was a hack, though, I just said he can't make the grade in Hollywood, which he hasn't been for years, and why he's being courted by these "eclectic" indie filmmakers, the likes of which I personally can't stand.

My point is, he isn't acting. He's going through the motions, and I think he has everyone fooled in the movies where he's merely playing himself, in the same token, stereotyping his last days in cinema. I hate the fact that people find "entertainment" in movies starring people that are cashing in on what some consider relatability in sadness, but what I call showing up for a paycheck, playing yourself.

Critics aren't biased. Some may be, but many just give their opinions on films. Plenty of critics put down many independent films, if they genuinely don't like them. It's kinda a fallacious mindset to simply insinuate that all critics will by default love independent films because of a bias, without any valid form of reasoning or evidence to support such a silly claim. So if any critic likes an independent film that you don't, he's biased? They give valid reasons as to why or why not they like/dislike movies they review, if anyone is coming off as bias, it's you making up accusations about Bill Murray, no offense.

Also, why do you say he's playing himself? So in real life you somehow know, factually, that he is the way his characters are in recent movies? How do you know this, how did you come to this questionable conclusion? Do you know him personally? Again, making a very very sloppy and baseless assumption that has absolutely zero credibility or merrit. He's just found a niche, and he's good at playing that type of character. He's basically become a character actor of a completely different form then how he used to be.

Also, you make it sound like he's untalented because he hasn't been in big overblown hollywood movies, as if those movies have good acting/actors to begin with. Plenty of good actors only do independent films because they are more artistic and they offer a more interesting roll then some shitty hollywood movie with explosions and a meteor coming to earth. Plenty of great actors choose independent movies so they can satisfy their artistic desires, where playing a doctor is some overblow shitfest with no brains doesn't appeal to them.

Sounds like you simply don't like Murray or his recent movies and so you are making stuff up to try and hurt his reputation/movies, when in reality you probably just didn't like his movies.

Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
I hate the fact that people find "entertainment" in movies starring people that are cashing in on what some consider relatability in sadness, but what I call showing up for a paycheck, playing yourself.

I don't know what 'relatability' means, but sadness - or melancholy, if you want the more pertinent description of his performances - is a legitimate emotion, too. I know from previous discussions, you dislike Wes Anderson, but I think you're really just missing the gentle humor and sardonic optimism of his movies. He doesn't suffer the bombast or deliver the blatancy of a Michael Bay/Joel Schumacher production, which is precisely what entertains so many people. Not everyone wants the 'message' of the movie stuffed down their throats.

Bill Murray's recent movies contain perfect examples of deceptively subtle performances that are melancholic, but ultimately charming. He's matured from a fantastic and exuberant entertainer to a fantastic and subtle performer. I like both.

Originally posted by BackFire
Critics aren't biased. Some may be, but many just give their opinions on films. Plenty of critics put down many independent films, if they genuinely don't like them. It's kinda a fallacious mindset to simply insinuate that all critics will by default love independent films because of a bias, without any valid form of reasoning or evidence to support such a silly claim. So if any critic likes an independent film that you don't, he's biased? They give valid reasons as to why or why not they like/dislike movies they review, if anyone is coming off as bias, it's you making up accusations about Bill Murray, no offense.

Also, why do you say he's playing himself? So in real life you somehow know, factually, that he is the way his characters are in recent movies? How do you know this, how did you come to this questionable conclusion? Do you know him personally? Again, making a very very sloppy and baseless assumption that has absolutely zero credibility or merrit. He's just found a niche, and he's good at playing that type of character. He's basically become a character actor of a completely different form then how he used to be.

Also, you make it sound like he's untalented because he hasn't been in big overblown hollywood movies, as if those movies have good acting/actors to begin with. Plenty of good actors only do independent films because they are more artistic and they offer a more interesting roll then some shitty hollywood movie with explosions and a meteor coming to earth. Plenty of great actors choose independent movies so they can satisfy their artistic desires, where playing a doctor is some overblow shitfest with no brains doesn't appeal to them.

Sounds like you simply don't like Murray or his recent movies and so you are making stuff up to try and hurt his reputation/movies, when in reality you probably just didn't like his movies.

Critics, and their opinions, like actors, can be bought and sold. I wasn't speaking in generalities, including all critics, given they split down the middle, and it would be uncharacteristically naive of me to suggest such. There's plenty of Wes Anderson dick riding in the media, sometimes because it's en vogue, sometimes because critics genuinely feel he's something special. That's Hollywood, and that's their opinion, which is worth about as much as the next persons. It's all in how you voice your opinion that gets you respect. Some people base their favorite critics soley on the reader and critic liking or disliking the same movies, regardless of supporting causes. That's why I don't value any critics opinion.

I don't know Bill Murray personally, but himself and the characters are not too far detatched. He's washed up, not having a hit since "Groundhog Day". He plays roles of has beens in his last three movies, which is art imitating life. He showed up on Letterman, not once but TWICE, drunk as hell, on live television. That, coupled with jobbing to voicing "Garfield", don't bode well for his celebrity status, in my opinion. This "character niche" he's found is just Bill Murray being Bill Murray, so it would seem. I've read enough into the man himself to draw parallels, and they're not that distant. All these pretentious, mid-life crisis, dysfunctional family lifestyle bullshit movies that pass for entertainment really bother me.

In closing, I have nothing against Bill Murray, he's obviously tapped into a very reputable and profitable genre, that of movies for single adults who feel they've failed in every aspect of life. I guess the market for those kind of movies is out there, and are considered entertainment for someone, so, who am I to knock it, right? His talent is diminished, he's a shell of his former outrageous, witty, and cunning self, now, fodder for arthouse pity flicks and Criterion Collection DVD library titles. Watching him "evolve" in the films he's chose is like cinematic morphine.

That's just my opinion.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I don't know what 'relatability' means, but sadness - or melancholy, if you want the more pertinent description of his performances - is a legitimate emotion, too. I know from previous discussions, you dislike Wes Anderson, but I think you're really just missing the gentle humor and sardonic optimism of his movies. He doesn't suffer the bombast or deliver the blatancy of a Michael Bay/Joel Schumacher production, which is precisely what entertains so many people. Not everyone wants the 'message' of the movie stuffed down their throats.

Bill Murray's recent movies contain perfect examples of deceptively subtle performances that are melancholic, but ultimately charming. He's matured from a fantastic and exuberant entertainer to a fantastic and subtle performer. I like both.

I don't find anything entertaining about watching a horde of former child-stars sqwander over spent riches and their personal indifferences, nether in adult based "dark comedy". My god, how could I have forgotten "Rushmore".

Anyone remember what his character role in "Rushmore" was, by chance?

An unhappy millionaire.

Art imitating life. I rest my case.

He hasn't had a hit? You must define "hit" differently then me, because Lost in Translation was a HUGE success. It made a profit of 1,000% and was nominated for numerous awards, and earned him several awards as well. Life Aquatic and broken flowers were also quite successful. So where's this idea that he hasn't had a hit since groundhogs day coming from?

So he was "drunk" on Letterman (I think you'd have to be to go on such a shitty talk show). This coulda been a publicity stunt or merely an act, it could have been planned. Aside from a possible drunk appearance on TV, that has nothing to do with his personal life or his professional life, what evidence actually supports the idea that he's just playing himself in all of these movies? Maybe he's just so good at playing these types of rolls that he actually convinces you that that's how he really is, he's THAT convincing, eh?

Moreover, you're making another bad generallization and assumptions about the people who enjoy these movies. Why do you think people who enjoy these movies are inherently single and feel they've failed at life? That's no different then saying that anyone who enjoys Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer is a serial killer, or anyone who enjoys 40 Year Old Virgin is a middle aged virgin. You can't generalise about an audience and assume that they are all in some way similar to the content of a film that they like. It's not the case, and I'm sure you know it.

The man's talent has only grown, I'm sure he could still go do some silly outrageous comedy, he has just gone down another path, very few comedic actors are able to transcend into Drama with the success that he has, that fact alone is enough to retort any baseless knocks at his talent or character that you or anyone could make.

Originally posted by BackFire
He hasn't had a hit? You must define "hit" differently then me, because Lost in Translation was a HUGE success. It made a profit of 1,000% and was nominated for numerous awards, and earned him several awards as well. Life Aquatic and broken flowers were also quite successful. So where's this idea that he hasn't had a hit since groundhogs day coming from?

So he was "drunk" on Letterman (I think you'd have to be to go on such a shitty talk show). This coulda been a publicity stunt or merely an act, it could have been planned. Aside from a possible drunk appearance on TV, that has nothing to do with his personal life or his professional life, what evidence actually supports the idea that he's just playing himself in all of these movies? Maybe he's just so good at playing these types of rolls that he actually convinces you that that's how he really is, he's THAT convincing, eh?

Moreover, you're making another bad generallization and assumptions about the people who enjoy these movies. Why do you think people who enjoy these movies are inherently single and feel they've failed at life? That's no different then saying that anyone who enjoys Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer is a serial killer, or anyone who enjoys 40 Year Old Virgin is a middle aged virgin. You can't generalise about an audience and assume that they are all in some way similar to the content of a film that they like. It's not the case, and I'm sure you know it.

The man's talent has only grown, I'm sure he could still go do some silly outrageous comedy, he has just gone down another path, very few comedic actors are able to transcend into Drama with the success that he has, that fact alone is enough to retort any baseless knocks at his talent or character that you or anyone could make.

Awards mean shit to me, man. Every single one of them, because they're based on nothing but the opinions of the peers of the filmmaker. Not the public, because "Lost in Translation", in MANY, MANY circles, is DESPISED and regarded as one of the most utterly ostentatious movies of the past decade. I'm sure having the last name of COPPOLA had a little something to do with it. Oozing with pretentious, heavy-handed self-pity and grief, that movie was.

Have you ever SEEN what Wes Anderson looks like? Google an image, it's private school brat personified. Given most of his works are rooted in personal experience, how could he be making films for anyone other than his own kind? There's a theme in his movies, what, with the main characters being unhappy, divorced, having lost in love and life, being dysfunctional. It's pretty obvious to me that he's shooting for a particular demographic, and it's MY OPINION is that they include the menopausal and erectily dysfunctional.

I'm not on some Bill Murray smear campaign. Someone said there was something appealing about his "acting style" and I disagreed, and shared my opinion. I cited examples to show the parallels where the roles he takes on reflect his present lifestyle, and has been the case for the past 8 years. Adult comedies and dramas where namely adults can relate.

Apparently, Wes Anderson feels Bill Murray can convey dejection, isolation, and a sense of worthless that no other actor can, and if that's what sells his movies then fine. But I care to see people walk in here, praising him for more or less being his usual self, in situations that are all too familiar.

I'm done, and I'd really like to get back on topic.

Edit, Triple post.

edit, triple post.

Awards don't mean much, but they do show if a film is successful in some form or another. Also there's the fact that Lost in Translation made an assload of money for what it was. Regaurdless, whether you like it or not, it was a hit, and it was a successful movie.

I've seen what Anderson looks like, but I'm not one to be shallow enough to judge a guy on his looks, let alone let his looks have anything to do with how I feel about his films. The theme in his movies is subtle humor, there are other similarties, and yes, the characters having been divorced or unhappy is some of them, that's just dramatic devices. Many dramas have characters who are unhappy and trying to regain their happiness, you're attck is more on the drama genre then Wes Anderson, who's using pretty normal dramatic techniques. I've noticed that Wes Anderson fans are varied, in a very large way. I'm sure many are middle aged, but there are also many who are young, who just like his odd style of quiet humor and his unique style of film.

In all honesty I've not seen any examples showing this supposed parallel between Bill Murrays rolls and his personal life. The only common is that he plays middle aged men, one of which was a rich man. That's not enough to really support the thought that he's just playing himself and nothing more. You're simply ignoring/not recognizing the things he does well. Which as I and others have said, is very subtle facial expresions. The guy can do more with his eyes, and with his mouth closed then most can do with all communitative tools combined.

And yes, it is baseless because it's based on pure assumption. He's not doing commercials in Japan, and he hasn't taken another route, he's simply changed his style of acting, he's still acting. But yeah, if he does happen to be in a film about erectile dysfunction then obviously that must mean he has erectile dysfunction in real life, just like Dylan Baker playing a convincing peadophile must mean that he's a peadophile in real life, and so fourth.

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Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
That's what I said earlier, and if that's the case, why didn't they take the Earth then..?

That is one of the many plot holes. However, I don't think it stops it from being a good movie. I thought it was a good action/Thriller/Sci-fi flick. It didn't get boring. Some good camera work, good acting (If I remember properly I was surprised how good Dakota's acting was). The plot holes annoyed me at first but I looked over that. Definitely some good visual work. Nice pop-corn flick.

I dunno what the hell was up with the quadruple posting. Could someone edit 3 of them?

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Originally posted by Nevermind
(If I remember properly I was surprised how good Dakota's acting was).

Err..no. Her role in WOTW was absolutely dreadful and intolerable.

Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
I dunno what the hell was up with the quadruple posting. Could someone edit 3 of them?

lol, I didn't even notice. I'll edit for you.

Originally posted by Cinemaddiction
There's a theme in his movies, what, with the main characters being unhappy, divorced, having lost in love and life, being dysfunctional. It's pretty obvious to me that he's shooting for a particular demographic, and it's MY OPINION is that they include the menopausal and erectily dysfunctional.

Have you actually seen his movies, or are you just going on the descriptions you read on imdb.com? Every Wes Anderson movie ends with a charmingly triumphant success, and a conviction within the main protagonists that life just got better. I've forgotten the ending to 'Bottle Rocket', but 'Rushmore' ends with Max's show, 'The Royal Tenenbaums' has a 'closure' moment for each character, and the finale to 'The Life Aquatic' shows the redemption of Steve Zissou. These are hardly facets to appease those with penis problems. If so, what do you say about someone in their late twenties who finds entertainment in a puerile film aimed at pre-teens, a la 'The Fantastic Four'? Perhaps a cloest pedophile? Seems to be the way your line of thinking is going...

I agree with Cinema about Critics being biased. Specially that bloated senile Roger Ebert that praises films that appeal to his political views.

Now as for my list:

The Excellent:

Batman Begins
Sin City
Wallace and Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit
Haute Tension (not really a 2005 film but was release in theathers 2005...doesn't count? Who cares?!)

The Good (Actually NO! Excellent and Good are almost the same so I'll call it...) The Entertaining

Doom
Kingdom of Heaven
Madagascar
Chronicles of Narnia

The Ugly, Disappointing, and the "I never want to see EVER again in DVD, TV, Cable, or even in as a cheap Arline movie":

Land of the Dead (Romero FAILED! The only factor that kept me in the movie was the Gore. Storyline, characters, artistic value=0)
Star Wars Episode III (Similar to other George but this one was inetiable. Trully disappointed)
Aeon Flux (W T F?)
Chicken Little (Mc Donalds should had a Chicken nuggets promotion instead of promoting this lame animation)
Valiant
Saw II
Fantastic Four (After Sin City and Batman Begins....Why would you see this crap from Marvel Comics?)
Elektra (Yet another Marvel Comics Disaster)
Son of the Mask (Uh, hello? anyone saw this? Shame on you if you did)
Alone in the Dark (Uwe Boll triumphs again! By far his best work on a crap movie)
Peter Jackson's King Kong (Overly done...not really something getting on DVD)
That's it...hopefully 2006 will be far more better. 🙂

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Have you actually seen his movies, or are you just going on the descriptions you read on imdb.com? Every Wes Anderson movie ends with a charmingly triumphant success, and a conviction within the main protagonists that life just got better. I've forgotten the ending to 'Bottle Rocket', but 'Rushmore' ends with Max's show, 'The Royal Tenenbaums' has a 'closure' moment for each character, and the finale to 'The Life Aquatic' shows the redemption of Steve Zissou. These are hardly facets to appease those with penis problems. If so, what do you say about someone in their late twenties who finds entertainment in a puerile film aimed at pre-teens, a la 'The Fantastic Four'? Perhaps a cloest pedophile? Seems to be the way your line of thinking is going...

I've seen them all, and the happy ending in his movies is just that, because it seems that it's some sort of message, promoting false hope to the people that feel they can relate to his movies. Wes Anderson comes off as a off-beat movie snob, with dark humor, and his legions will just say that people that don't like "his" humor just "don't get it".

I get it just fine, I just don't like it, and it doesn't entertain me, in fact it makes me feel as worthless as the characters he hustles in his films.

Fair enough, but if you did get it, you'd realise that the reality of the movies is based in warm sardonicism, so they're not supposed to be taken too seriously.

The Good:
Red-Eye
King Kong
Walk the Line
Batman Begins
Wedding Crashers
The 40 year old Virgin

The ok:
Rent
Narnia
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Bewitched
The Island

The Bad:
Fantastic 4
The Ring 2
Duece Bigalow