Originally posted by Grant Dempsey
Err... I don't really understand that train of thought. Plenty of stories have more than one antagonist and thus antagonists who aren't completely central to stuff. It's like saying all the little Sith lackeys and other enemies throughout the game should be removed because they aren't the final boss.Besides, I didn't say Darth Nihilus was unimportant. I was emphasizing that he wasn't the primary focus. I still thought he had a pretty strong off-screen presence throughout the game anyway, for the most part. The story just stood to gain from a bit more of that.
I don't quite know why everyone's so intent on judging Darth Nihilus as though he should've had a fully fleshed-out backstory and maybe a sob story to go with it or something, though. That would've just detracted from what he was intended to be. He wasn't meant to have a clear past as an individual beyond Malachor V.
Bit part villains should have bit part backgrounds. Nihilus was instead grafted onto the background befitting a central character, which he was not. It was a complete waste of everyone's time.
It wasn't even a good fight- and dramatically speaking, Nihilus added nothing at all to the story.
Off-screen presence is pointless without the pay-off. Nihilus had none.
The story wasn;t about him. He added nothing to the plot. His scenes, his background, were all without value.
Hence, he was an entirely pointless character, easily hacked down by the game's rampantly overpowered abilities.
Darth Nihilus wasn't really a character. At least not in the sense you seem to be pushing for. He was a presence. The threat he posed and the origins of that were ultimately the bulk of his story, which still contributed to the rest of the game, through his connection to Malachor V and thus the Exile.
I don't insist that he was worthless without a past as an individual himself, a clear personality on the same level as most other beings in the galaxy, and a series of totally neato cutscenes with him killing people and spouting one-liners while doing so, because I see more point in trying to look at things from the perspective of how he was even intended. The lack of subtitles for his gurgling dialogue should have made it clear already that he was "larger than life" in an ominous and mysterious sort of way. At a certain point, it's almost like saying Godzilla should always be developed as a human being would be.
I don't hold the lack of difficulty to Darth Nihilus' fight against him either. I can't say challenge is the first thing on my mind when I go into a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic game. Besides, that's more something to criticize the gameplay system and design, or the way that particular boss fight was set up, for. I wouldn't smash the character itself for that at all, really.
I'd agree that the confrontation with Darth Nihilus came -- and then was over -- too suddenly, in the context of the story. The whole sequence leading to that through Telos was what really could have benefitted from something more. However, you just don't seem to be even bothering to approach how things could have been improved at all, other than to say that a "backstory" (which he had -- just not one too personal to him as an individual) was somehow completely crucial to the character as it was.
The lack of challenge simply belied the complete non-event that was huis confrontation. He was a total non-event; there was no more drama in his fight than against any of the sabre wielders in the final segment.
In a dramatic sense in a game like this, challenge should absolutely be a factor or the immersion of the game is destroyed.
Saying he is not really a character seems to have nothing to do with the issue, and his connection to the plot is pure fluff. Fluff has no value. He should have provided drama, plot, purpose. Instead he was just there. Any idiot can write a few lines that seem to make him relevant. But take him out and would there have been any important difference? None. The fluff that ties hm in seems only justififed because... he was put it. It's circular. No value.
You think a major character- as Nihilus was clearly intended to be- does not deserve a proper build up? And a pay-off to that build up? Then I have absolutely no comprehension of what you consider good storytelling, because from where I am- and I have written plenty, and far better than KOTOR II- it's crappy drama.
Having made the criticisms, the ways the situation could be improved should be obvious. Nihilus should either have been given a proper stake in the plot, or removed entirely. You can't just drop in a pointless Sith Lord like that. It's too big a thing to be that laissez faire about.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
In a dramatic sense in a game like this, challenge should absolutely be a factor or the immersion of the game is destroyed.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Saying he is not really a character seems to have nothing to do with the issue, and his connection to the plot is pure fluff. Fluff has no value. He should have provided drama, plot, purpose. Instead he was just there. Any idiot can write a few lines that seem to make him relevant. But take him out and would there have been any important difference? None. The fluff that ties hm in seems only justififed because... he was put it. It's circular. No value.
It wasn't necessary to know who he was before he became "Darth Nihilus" and indeed it would have only taken away from his character and role in the story more than add to it. Again, you're approaching Darth Nihilus with a very strict mindset as to what he "should" have contributed, yet you're leaving no room for the possibility that what he gave to the story was not supposed to be through his personal identity or backstory as an individual. His character had a different point, and certainly not one immediately irrelevant.
A character serve any sort of purpose within a story. The quality of the writing and the storytelling in relation to any given character should mostly, I feel, be judged according to how well they fit and represented the intention with which they were conceived in the first place. (You wouldn't exactly criticize Luke Skywalker for not being "evil" enough, would you?) Your view is more restricting than it is "correct". The fact that Darth Nihilus had a human shape does not leave the writers obligated to treat him strictly in the manner you seem to be suggesting and no other, nor does it or should it invalidate any other sort of role he played in -- or contribution he made to -- the story.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
You think a major character- as Nihilus was clearly intended to be- does not deserve a proper build up? And a pay-off to that build up? Then I have absolutely no comprehension of what you consider good storytelling, because from where I am- and I have written plenty, and far better than KOTOR II- it's crappy drama.
Originally posted by kingkman
Ushgarak, you could never write a story better than KOTOR. Your writing skills suck.
😂
Seriously, that made me laugh, and it made me laugh hard. He's written stuff far better than KOTOR, you moronic fool.
Originally posted by kingkman
You're 28 too. You have got to admit man, you are pretty stupid for your age. You can prove me wrong by posting one of your super cool stories.
And you're pretty stupid and immature for not having an age. Now, go read the RPG sections for Ush's games. They make KOTOR seem like a fairy tale...
Originally posted by Nactous
Enough, first, kingkman, that is your opinion, and second, no KotOR bashing. And thats not needed Janus.
Who died and appointed you king? First off, kingman's opinion was out of line and derogatory towards a staff member who wasn't even present to defend himself. Second, people are allowed to bash KOTOR just the same as they should be allowed to bash ROTS, TPM or ANH, etc. Just because you're a serious KOTOR fanboy doesn't mean everyone has to avoid cracking at the game for your sake. And third, I reported kingman because that's what we're supposed to do when people are flaming staff or other members, or are otherwise breeching the rules of the forum. So yes, it was needed. kingman makes it a point to call people 'morons', 'fools', and 'idiots' just for the sake of being obnoxious.
So, piss off.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Who died and appointed you king? First off, kingman's opinion was out of line and derogatory towards a staff member who wasn't even present to defend himself. Second, people are allowed to bash KOTOR just the same as they should be allowed to bash ROTS, TPM or ANH, etc. Just because you're a serious KOTOR fanboy doesn't mean everyone has to avoid cracking at the game for your sake. And third, I reported kingman because that's what we're supposed to do when people are flaming staff or other members, or are otherwise breeching the rules of the forum. So yes, it was needed. kingman makes it a point to call people 'morons', 'fools', and 'idiots' just for the sake of being obnoxious.So, piss off.
I generally try not to insult people, but you just ask for it. Every time I see you, you're the self-righteous, grammatically challenged KOTOR avenger and you should probably not even stick your nose in it unless you're willing to get it snipped off. You have no damn right telling me what is neccessary or what I should do when you're average contribution to this forum is "Kotor r teh rulez!" So please, go away and play KOTOR for the 1,435th time.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
I generally try not to insult people, but you just ask for it. Every time I see you, you're the self-righteous, grammatically challenged KOTOR avenger and you should probably not even stick your nose in it unless you're willing to get it snipped off. You have no damn right telling me what is neccessary or what I should do when you're average contribution to this forum is "Kotor r teh rulez!" So please, go away and play KOTOR for the 1,435th time.
Whoa, arnt your grown up.