Wolverine vs Batgirl(with an adamantium sword)

Originally posted by batdude123
That doesn't even make sense. You have to have brain function in order to move your body, instincs, animals, or otherwise. What you said is contradictory to itself. Anyways, yes Cass could still read his moves while fighting him because she's not reading his mind, she's reading his body.

Originally posted by capt it up
wolverien won next time after that as well.
mister-x would destroy cass.

also u think that the only fight im speaking about? that was on for my besekrer refrences.

wolverine defeated pylocke by fighting mind and body as one.

he also defeated an assassin who has a special training to take him down wa sa telepath had a suit with quite a few abilites and the suit also made her times 10 stornger,fast,more agile,better reflexes and wolverine still beate her ass

You're still not getting this. CASS IS NOT A TELEPATH. SHE CAN READ HIS BODY WHETHER OR NOT HE'S IN BERSERKER OR NOT. SHE DOESN'T READ PEOPLE'S MINDS, SO WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS FIGHT.

Originally posted by batdude123
While I agree that they have a degree to sense what they're opponent's can do (call it intuition more than anything), they can't do it on the scale that Batgirl can do it. Why do you think it mentions her ability to read people's motions and how long it took her to develope this skill in comic books? She is above what an average fighter can do in terms of reading your opponent. She has honed and developed this skill ever since she was really young. She's definitely NOT an average fighter.

Originally posted by capt it up
actauly im not wolverine can attack on pure instincts and fight like that or he can fight with his body and mind as one so when he thinking the mvoe he doing it. cass reading abilties would be useless sicne wolverine beatatcking so quickly and random she would be uable to read the atatck properly.
also wolverine due to his sense can sense attacks as well.

You're just guessing that Batgirl would not be able to. I'm sorry my friend, but you're grabing at straws here.

Originally posted by capt it up
wolvreine still has 100 + years of experience over her lol

😖hifty:

Originally posted by batdude123
You're still not getting this. CASS IS NOT A TELEPATH. SHE CAN READ HIS BODY WHETHER OR NOT HE'S IN BERSERKER OR NOT. SHE DOESN'T READ PEOPLE'S MINDS, SO WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS FIGHT.

also DD and wolverine can both read opponets moves due to hyper senses.

Originally posted by batdude123
You're just guessing that Batgirl would not be able to. I'm sorry my friend, but you're grabing at straws here.

Originally posted by batdude123
While I agree that they have a degree to sense what they're opponent's can do (call it intuition more than anything), they can't do it on the scale that Batgirl can do it. Why do you think it mentions her ability to read people's motions and how long it took her to develope this skill in comic books? She is above what an average fighter can do in terms of reading your opponent. She has honed and developed this skill ever since she was really young. She's definitely NOT an average fighter.

I could flat out tell you that I'm going to punch in the face with my right arm in five seconds and it doesn't mean I wont hit you. Knowing something doesn't mean you'll be able to put up a difference against it.

And once again, when Cass lost her ability to read body language like an open book Batman wouldn't her patrol. He said she wasn't good enough, and apparently Robin is skilled enough to go out on patrol. Explain this please? Cass is an average fighter with a huge advantage of being able to read the movements of her opponent that is all.

actually she's a great fighter. but seriously if one is used to living and fighting one way since u've been able to walk and suddenly lose that you wouldn't be in any shape to fight. like this if Wolvie lost every mutant power he had he wouldn't be nearly as effective as he would be with them. And since she's was not used to fighting without her ability to read moves she would be very vulnerable not cause she's just an average fighter.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
actually she's a great fighter. but seriously if one is used to living and fighting one way since u've been able to walk and suddenly lose that you wouldn't be in any shape to fight. like this if Wolvie lost every mutant power he had he wouldn't be nearly as effective as he would be with them. And since she's was not used to fighting without her ability to read moves she would be very vulnerable not cause she's just an average fighter.

Batman said it would take years of training for Cass to be good enough to patrol with out her ability to read body language. She just isn't good with out it. If Richard Dragon lost his right arm he'd still be out their kicking ass, not much of a difference. She is essentially an average fighter with telepathy except in this case it is the ability to read body language which she developed out of necessity.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I could flat out tell you that I'm going to punch in the face with my right arm in five seconds and it doesn't mean I wont hit you. Knowing something doesn't mean you'll be able to put up a difference against it.

And once again, when Cass lost her ability to read body language like an open book Batman wouldn't her patrol. He said she wasn't good enough, and apparently Robin is skilled enough to go out on patrol. Explain this please? Cass is an average fighter with a huge advantage of being able to read the movements of her opponent that is all.

You have mentioned several times that Batgirl is not a topnotch fighter without her reading ability, and even in one post said that she was at best average.
And you base your assertions on what happened when Batgirl learnt how to talk, and in the process forgot how to read what a person was supposed to do with great efficacy.

You are right that she is not as good a fighter as she was without her reading ability, but you are WAAAY wrong in terms of you saying she was an 'average at best' fighter.
Fact of the matter is that Batgirl was still one of the best fighters ......yet she was not allowed to patrol (while Robin, as you correctly pointed out, was given free reign).
Why?

Well, let me dissect this. Have a look at the following conversation.

Batman says: You're still not ready. Your OFFENSE IS FINE, BUT YOUR DEFENSE ......! All your life, you've had that special ability to predict your opponent's moves. Now that's gone ....YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN DEFENSE LIKE THE REST OF US."

Thus there is the first problem with your statements.
You say that without her 'reading' ability she is an 'average' fighter at best.
The truth of the matter is that she is still an offensive beast in every way, she just lacks the same level of defense that was granted by her reading ability.

Now, the next question is obviously why Robin is allowed to patrol, while Batgirl during this stage stayed at home.
Why was that?

Simple, and Oracle addresses it when he is talking to Batgirl.
Batgirl had started to dress up in a different costume to go and tackle criminals, and she (Batgirl) managed to ALWAYS thoroughly defeat them.
As she says, 'who needs defense' when she can take them all out using her offense!
While she is with Oracle the following conversation occurs:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."

The above conversation (and another with Robin, which also has him telling her that her daredevil stunts, like walking between bullets, is just insane) basically shows why she is not allowed to patrol.
Her offensive skills are still perfect (while fighting with Shiva, before Shiva fixes her reading skills, Batgirl is seen to think that all she needs is ONE HIT), what is lacking is her reading ability.
This is a problem when she has a penchant for taking skills that Robin DOESN'T, and thus that is why one is allowed to patrol and the other is not.

Again:
- the fight with Shiva where she asks for just one hit
- the fight with the various thugs in Gotham where she needs that with her offense she doesn't need defence
- the talk with Oracle where Oracle explains to her why she (Batgirl) is not ready, even though she is far better than Oracle as Batgirl ever was in the past (basically because of the risks taken by Batgirl, which would be deadly without her reading skills)

And then there is this conversation between Shiva and Batgirl:

Shiva: " It's getting late, and I've wasted enough time on you already I'd heard you were good. Very good. Imagine my surprise when I found that not only IS YOUR DEFENSE PITIFUL ....but that you won't even fight like we both know you can. I saw the moves you didn't make. Lethal moves. You're obviously a TRAINED ASSASSIN. Why do you keep play-fighting?"
Batgirl: "I don't kill."

Batgirl: I need a favor
Shiva: A favor? After that little trick you pulled last time? You'll be lucky to leave this roof alive.
Batgirl: You ...see....moves. Before ....they ....happen. I ....used ....to. I ...want ...to ....again.
Shiva: Yes. Yes, I see it now. The gap in your style. I can give you back what you've lost. Rather quickly infact. But there's a price.

Again, it is not that Batgirl is a bad fighter (or as you say, 'at best average'😉 it is that she is a great fighter with amazing offence, but the problem is that without her reading abilities AND her penchant for taking dangerous stunts, she is not ready for patrol.
Oracle when she was Batgirl never used to take the risks Cassie takes.
Robin NEVER dodges a fullisade of bullets from point-blank range.
Not even Batman and Nightwing take the type of insane risks that Batgirl does.

Conclusion:
Under no circumstances was Batgirl without her reading ability an 'average' fighter.
What she was lacking was her combative defensive suite, which (in her case) was a fatal flaw given the risk choices she takes.
To reiterate .....here is the Oracle conversation again:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."

And about the Robin-Batgirl comparison .....let's just say that later on (several issues) while Robin and Batgirl are taking down a room full of criminals, Batgirl takes out some perp firing a gun at her by weaving in-between the bullets.
What does Robin say? He is shocked, then he simply states in awe: "Bullet dodging. Okay!

If Robin used to take the same risks Batgirl took he also wouldn't be allowed to patrol .....unless he got the same defensive skills like Cassie.
And Cassie is not an 'average' fighter. It would have taken her 10 years to be as good as Batman was defensive-wise (and probably much longer to be like she was before she had lost her reading ability), but her offensive skills were still alright.

I'd just thought I'd put out my two cents... I'm not going to become too involved with this debate:

wolvreine still has 100 + years of experience over her lol

What good is 100+ years of experience if you can't remember it...

actauly im not. she unable to read death stroke moves for the very same reason

I'm assuming she's unable to read deathstrokes moves because he uses 90% of his friggin' brain. Please don't say Wolverine uses that much of his brain...

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
I'd just thought I'd put out my two cents... I'm not going to become too involved with this debate:

What good is 100+ years of experience if you can't remember it...

I'm assuming she's unable to read deathstrokes moves because he uses 90% of his friggin' brain. Please don't say Wolverine uses that much of his brain...

Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.

Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

not really 100+ years experience. for at least 30 of those years he was a kid, a sickly teenage, just a miner with Rose in a small town. so it'd be like 70 years

He was a cage fighter during most of those years, and a good one at that.

he uses 90 for tactical, higher, fighting thinking. not bodily functions.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.

Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

It's not a misconception. He uses 90% of his brain to think and reason and for fighting ability.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.

Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

people use about 10% of there brains, dude.... that's been a known fact for a while.

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
people use about 10% of there brains, dude.... that's been a known fact for a while.

Actually, people only use 10% of their brain for thinking. 😉

Born the second son of wealthy landowners John and Elizabeth Howlett in Alberta, Canada during the late 19th Century, James Howlett was a frail boy of poor health. James was largely neglected by his mother, who was institutionalized for a time following the death of her first son, John Jr., in 1897. He spent most of his early years on the estate grounds and had two playmates that lived on the Howlett estate with him: Rose, a red-headed girl who was brought in from town to be a companion to young James, and a boy nicknamed "Dog" who was the son of the groundskeeper, Thomas Logan. Thomas Logan was an alcoholic and was extremely abusive to his son. The children were close friends but as they reached young adulthood, the abuse inflicted upon Dog warped his mind. His actions would lead to a tragic chain of events. that started as the three neared their adolescent years when Dog made unwanted advances toward Rose and James reported it to his father. In retaliation Dog killed James's pet dog. This in turn resulted in the expulsion of Thomas Logan and Dog Logan from the estate.
Thomas Logan, in a drunken stupor, invaded the Howlett estate with his son and attempted to take Elizabeth Howlett (implied to be his former lover) with him. John attempted to stop him and Thomas Logan shot him down in cold blood. James Howlett had just entered the room when this occurred and for the first time his mutation manifested; his claws extended from the backs of his hands and he attacked the intruders with uncharacteristic ferocity, killing Thomas Logan, and scarring Dog's face with three claw marks. Elizabeth Howlett, who was already an emotionally disturbed woman, took her life immediately afterward with a blast from Thomas's gun. Fearing for their safety, Rose fled the estate with James, who appeared to have been deeply traumatized and had somehow repressed or forgotten most of the memories of life back at the estate. Dog falsely reported to the police and James's grandfather that Rose had murdered John Howlett II and Thomas Logan. The eldest Howlett, shunned James and with no family left, took Dog in as his ward. However, Dog was already a burgeoning psychopath and it was too late for his character to evolve down any other path.

In the years that followed, James and Rose took refuge in a British Colombia mining colony under the guise of being cousins. James also assumed the name of "Logan" in order to hide his identity. As the hard work of mining toughened his body, and his mutant powers developed, he grew to be unusually strong and ferocious.He was immune to the elements and even ran with the wolves in the forest, learning to hunt as an animal hunts. "Logan" became a valuable and admirable figure amongst the small community of miners due to his hard work and strong ethics, earning him the respect of his peers, including the foreman Smitty, who became a surrogate father figure to James. During this period, James developed strong feelings for Rose, but could not act on them for the sake of their guise as cousins. Smitty, who had been mentoring James all these years, had also grown close to Rose, and the two eventually fell in love and became engaged, much to the scorn and surprise of James, who later accepted the situation for the sake of Rose's happiness.

That doesn't say anything about him fighting during that time.