Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Incidentally, on the intro page of at least one issue of Thanos' last series, Starling writes that with THOTU Thanos destroyed HIS universe, NOT the multiverse as so many people are prone to believe. The impact of THOTU was universal, not multiversal.
True.
So do you think HOTU < PF?
I'm not entirely clear about the difference between Multiversal and universal.
LT is supposed to be the former (he is in all universes rather than copies), yet he will be replaced by evolution like Eternity which seems to sugguest he is universal. Unless all the universes evolve at the same rate.....
Similarly, if HOTU's universe ending feat is universal.....
Since GS is not here yet, let me help.
Maybe LT is supposed to be universal only.
So defeating him is a universal feat too. I'm not too sure about this reasoning. It might take multiunviersal power to defeat the top dog of a universal power (i'm assuming PF is multiversal).
Hence HOTU is just at that level. Universal level.
PF is supposed to be multiuniveral. The assumption here is that a multiversal power is more powerful than a universal power. A fair enough assumption, but still an assumption
So PF>HOTU.
What do you think Xplosive?
Originally posted by Richrf
True.So do you think HOTU < PF?
I'm not entirely clear about the difference between Multiversal and universal.
LT is supposed to be the former (he is in all universes rather than copies), yet he will be replaced by evolution like Eternity which seems to sugguest he is universal. Unless all the universes evolve at the same rate.....
Similarly, if HOTU's universe ending feat is universal.....
Since GS is not here yet, let me help.
Maybe LT is supposed to be universal only.
So defeating him is a universal feat too. I'm not too sure about this reasoning. It might take multiunviersal power to defeat the top dog of a universal power (i'm assuming PF is multiversal).
Hence HOTU is just at that level. Universal level.
PF is supposed to be multiuniveral. The assumption here is that a multiversal power is more powerful than a universal power. A fair enough assumption, but still an assumption
So PF>HOTU.
What do you think Xplosive?
LT is also multiversal power and still got crushed by HOTU.
HOTU>PF
Originally posted by Richrf
Oh sure , that's a given. But I'm not that interested in GS. The more interesting question is will the majority of people think the same?The stock in PF has risen a lot, but I'm more curious to see whether people go as far as GS in making PF top dog.
His recent direction seems to be
1. To create doubt about TOAA, so as to disqualify it from consideration
2. Degrade the power of LT
3. Degrade the power of HOTU
This seems to be different from his stance in the past that gives PF/LT roughly equal status but different roles, both serving under TOAA
If he succeeds in all 3, PF will be top dog.
From my observation of this forum, he has some succeess with doing 1) and 2).
It will be interesting to see if he succueeds in 3). This thread is meant to gauge 3).
TOAA isnt by canon Marvels supreme being. I have merely attempted to shed that forum-wide misconception and have been quite successful.
During LTs confrontation with the IG he agreed that he didnt know how he would fare in a confrontation with it. With that in mind, plus a lack of feats, regardless of his role, in terms of power he cant be said to be greater than the IG.
Im not trying to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU. Im just saying people cant say HOTU is conclusively greater than Phoenix when Phoenix has greater feats and wasnt one of the defeated forces. That stands to reason. 😄
You misunderstand son, this isnt about putting Phoenix at the top of Marvel, this is about highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards prevalent in alot of debates across this forum.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You misunderstand son, this isnt about putting Phoenix at the top of Marvel, this is about highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards prevalent in alot of debates across this forum.
hahah. your altruism and dedication to spreading the truth is what makes you one of the greats gs!
😄
Originally posted by Richrf
True.So do you think HOTU < PF?
I'm not entirely clear about the difference between Multiversal and universal.
LT is supposed to be the former (he is in all universes rather than copies), yet he will be replaced by evolution like Eternity which seems to sugguest he is universal. Unless all the universes evolve at the same rate.....
Similarly, if HOTU's universe ending feat is universal.....
Since GS is not here yet, let me help.
Maybe LT is supposed to be universal only.
So defeating him is a universal feat too. I'm not too sure about this reasoning. It might take multiunviersal power to defeat the top dog of a universal power (i'm assuming PF is multiversal).
Hence HOTU is just at that level. Universal level.
PF is supposed to be multiuniveral. The assumption here is that a multiversal power is more powerful than a universal power. A fair enough assumption, but still an assumption
So PF>HOTU.
What do you think Xplosive?
I copy and pasted this into MS word ages ago but i cant remember the site:
A Universe is a single dimension reality, such as Earth-616, the mainstream Marvel Universe.
Uni - "one"
The Multiverse is the collection of alternate dimensions with a similar nature and universal hierarchy. Earth-616, pretty much all of the What if? worlds, and the vast bulk of the alternate Earths seen in the MU (which include beings like the Watcher, Eternity, etc) are within the same Multiverse. The myriad realms of Earth-616's Multiverse are overseen by the Living Tribunal. Those realms that lack this hierarchy of power are outside of the Multiverse, but within the larger Omniverse.
Multi - "many"
The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe, dimension, etc. This includes the real world (right outside of your window--get out of your parent's basements and check it out!!), but it also includes every single universe, realm, etc., every mentioned in any of Marvel Comics, as well as those from DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc. It includes every single literary, television show, movie, urban legend, whatever universe/realm ever. It includes everyone from Popeye to Rocky Balboa to Ronald Reagan to Romeo and Juliet to Luke Skywalker to Snoopy to Jay and Silent Bob, etc.
EVERYTHING is in the Omniverse, and there is only one Omniverse. Period. The End.
Omni - "all"
The above classification system was devised (at least in part) by Mark Gruenwald. However, it does seem to be missing one element. We have coined the term Megaverse to include realms associated with a particular line of comics, etc., but outside of the Multiverse. This would include such realms as the New Universe, Earth-Shadowline, etc. These realms lack the cosmic beings of the mainstream Multiverse, yet they are still more closely tied to other Marvel Universes than those of other comic lines (such as DC). Thus they are included within the Marvel Megaverse.
Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse).
There is one Living Tribunal so the one we see in What Ifs is the same one we see in 616 appearances. Some people have mistakenly assumed that because of this fact that he's automatically more powerful than beings and powers who are universal in nature. As we've seen with the What Ifs (the Korvac one), debatably the IG and HOTU that just isnt the case. He is just a different nature of being.
That info came from this website
Originally posted by Mordum
That info came from this website
Thanks Mordum!! 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStormDuring LTs confrontation with the IG he agreed that he didnt know how he would fare in a confrontation with it. With that in mind, plus a lack of feats, regardless of his role, in terms of power he cant be said to be greater than the IG.
If you say so, but this thread is not about LT, or TOAA...... 🙂
Im not trying to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU.
I'm surprised at you GS.
Why not say PF is greater than HOTU? According to you PF has greater feats than HOTU right?
After all , you use the same argument to say LT is weaker than PF. I.E LT has weaker feats than PF.
Since the same thing apples to HOTU VS PF to be consistent you would have to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU...
But something stops you, what is it?
BTW did you vote in this poll? Who for?
You misunderstand son, this isnt about putting Phoenix at the top of Marvel, this is about highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards prevalent in alot of debates across this forum.
You would be a lot more convincing, if your every post didn't happen to have the effect of putting PF at the top of the hierachy, or equalavantly to avoid conceding that PF might actually god forbid lose to anything....
Originally posted by Richrf
If you say so, but this thread is not about LT, or TOAA...... 🙂
No its not but you were the first to mention LT in this thread so i responded in kind. If i say so? If LT agrees he doesnt know then who is anyone on this forum to speak for him? 😕 Without a demonstration of power beyond what we've seen from the IG and with that scene in mind, noone can say hes conclusively beyond the IG.
Originally posted by Richrf
I'm surprised at you GS.Why not say PF is greater than HOTU? According to you PF has greater feats than HOTU right?
After all , you use the same argument to say LT is weaker than PF. I.E LT has weaker feats than PF.
Dont be surprised Richie. Based on Phoenix having higher feats and its role i'll let everyone come to their own conclusions. My point wasnt to make Phoenix higher up in the hierarchy than HOTU it was to highlight hypocrisy. With my views on Phoenix well known theres no need for me to relay my position your satisfaction. By using the same point certain members have used against myself i have been throughly amused to see said members both arguing against/ stubornly refusing to accept said point before eventually witnessing the collapse of their arguments.
Originally posted by Richrf
Since the same thing apples to HOTU VS PF to be consistent you would have to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU...But something stops you, what is it?
BTW did you vote in this poll? Who for?
You would be a lot more convincing, if your every post didn't happen to have the effect of putting PF at the top of the hierachy, or equalavantly to avoid conceding that PF might actually god forbid lose to anything....
Whether i convince you or not is of little to no consequence to myself as my reasons for doing this remain the same regardless.
As a side note considering the on panel evidence ive provided is the viewpoint that the Phoenix Force is second only to Marvels supreme being not completely understandable? Does it not have the top feats in Marvel? On top of that there are many occassions in many debates where i have painted a scenario in which a phoenix host can be defeated. You're uninformed my friend. Certainly not my problem. 😉
Dont be surprised Richie. Based on Phoenix having higher feats and its role i'll let everyone come to their own conclusions. My point wasnt to make Phoenix higher up in the hierarchy than HOTU it was to highlight hypocrisy.Please explain to me what hypocrisy is involved in saying HOTU is greater than PF. Or hypocrisy is saying that TOAA is the supreme being..
Here's one definition of the word
[quote]Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess.
So you saying those who rate PF lower down on the scale, don't really believe so? 🙂
With my views on Phoenix well known theres no need for me to relay my position your satisfaction.
I do think that it is interesting that while you do not hesitate to proclaim your view of PF being supreme to everything else, you hesitate to do so for HOTU..... Since even you the biggest fan of PF is not willing to state your belief out loud, I guess we can declare victory for HOTU then.
By using the same point certain members have used against myself i have been throughly amused to see said members both arguing against/ stubornly refusing to accept said point before eventually witnessing the collapse of their arguments.
Really? In this case though, it seems you are not willing to even argue for PF vs HOTU! Are you afraid your arguments will collapse?
Whether i convince you or not is of little to no consequence to myself as my reasons for doing this remain the same regardless.
Maybe not me, but havent you gone on record and said that raising, the status of PF on this board, is one of your greatest achievements?
I think it's a bad sign though that you refuse to defend PF against HOTU...
As a side note considering the on panel evidence ive provided is the viewpoint that the Phoenix Force is second only to Marvels supreme being not completely understandable? Does it not have the top feats in Marvel?
People need to hear you say it GS before they are convinced. It looks a bad sign for PF fans to hear that GS refuses to say that PF>HOTU...
On top of that there are many occassions in many debates where i have painted a scenario in which a phoenix host can be defeated.
Oh sure because they let themsleves get defeated. Because they don't need to be here, because it suits their purpose etc and other excuses
I find it amusing that the LT fans use pretty much the same excuses to defend low showing...
But of course in this poll, such reasons do not exist...
Originally posted by GalacticStormThere is one Living Tribunal so the one we see in What Ifs is the same one we see in 616 appearances. Some people have mistakenly assumed that because of this fact that he's automatically more powerful than beings and powers who are universal in nature. As we've seen with the What Ifs (the Korvac one), debatably the IG and HOTU that just isnt the case. He is just a different nature of being. [/B]
GS don't you see that there's a problem here?
Assume what Eternity tells us about the nature order is true. That humans will replace all the abstracts even LT.
In each universe, there will be humans, who evolve at different rates, some will replace earlier, some later.
If the replacement only affects abstracts, we have no problem, since there is one copy in each universe.
But how does it work with LT who is multiuniversal?
I suppose the same way that different Jean Greys are able to wield the PF.
I'd be so bold as to state that I unequivocally think that PF>THOTU. That story was more of a psychological study of Thanos than a demonstration of the power of a particular artifact, imo. I don't think Starlin intended it to be the focus of the story like the IG was.
As far as what happened with the LT...The problem with dealing with a being like that is that one can never be sure of motivation, power, desire, ability, etc. Also, because of his role in the MU, it's difficult for me to think that he was simply defeated and the multiverse would just continue orderly as usual.
For all we know, after Infinity Abyss, while living his life of peace and contemplation, Thanos stumbled across a strange fungus or herb in his garden. It was all just a dream...
Originally posted by Richrf
Please explain to me what hypocrisy is involved in saying HOTU is greater than PF. Or hypocrisy is saying that TOAA is the supreme being..Here's one definition of the word
So you saying those who rate PF lower down on the scale, don't really believe so? 🙂
You presume too much Richie. I have stated on these forums my reasons for this recent questioning of LT and so on, you obviously missed that. Those im directing this at know who they are, you need not worry yourself. Do not presume to know my motives or even worse to guess and then criticise based on that. Youre uninformed. Watch and listen.
Originally posted by Richrf
I do think that it is interesting that while you do not hesitate to proclaim your view of PF being supreme to everything else, you hesitate to do so for HOTU..... Since even you the biggest fan of PF is not willing to state your belief out loud, I guess we can declare victory for HOTU then.Really? In this case though, it seems you are not willing to even argue for PF vs HOTU! Are you afraid your arguments will collapse?
Who is hesitating? My views have been stated previously, my views are well known this is an old topic thats been done many times before. I will not post for your satisfaction. Phoenix has the bigger feats so make of that what you will. 😄
Originally posted by Richrf
Maybe not me, but havent you gone on record and said that raising, the status of PF on this board, is one of your greatest achievements?I think it's a bad sign though that you refuse to defend PF against HOTU...
People need to hear you say it GS before they are convinced. It looks a bad sign for PF fans to hear that GS refuses to say that PF>HOTU...
I have defended Phoenix by sorting through misconception riddled posts you've presented over the last few days. You dont speak for the people dont presume to tell me what they need to hear. My views are well known, my position is evident from my posts. I dont post to satisfy.
Originally posted by Richrf
Oh sure because they let themsleves get defeated. Because they don't need to be here, because it suits their purpose etc and other excusesI find it amusing that the LT fans use pretty much the same excuses to defend low showing...
But of course in this poll, such reasons do not exist...
Yet again youre making assumptions and posting from ignorance. If you'd like to be informed then ask nicely son. Dont guess my answer and make criticisms based on that.
The difference between the Phoenixes low showings and LTs are that they are explained away on panel. Its stated by captions, supporting characters and so on. Be it self imposed psychic circuit breakers, higher priorities or whatever its stated on panel, in bios, plus the Phoenix has consistent high end feats to back that up and support them being on the whole PIS/CIS. (Not in all cases mind you, Rachel is a prime example)
LTs low showings however are never, ever explained away on panel, plus on top of that he doesnt have a high level display of power(beyond the dubious) meaning that such low showings cant automatically be dismissed as PIS/CIS because he hasnt shown to be significantly and consistently beyond such low showings. Plus such an opinion isnt supported on panel. Thats the difference my friend. 😉
Originally posted by Richrf
GS don't you see that there's a problem here?Assume what Eternity tells us about the nature order is true. That humans will replace all the abstracts even LT.
In each universe, there will be humans, who evolve at different rates, some will replace earlier, some later.
If the replacement only affects abstracts, we have no problem, since there is one copy in each universe.
But how does it work with LT who is multiuniversal?
No timeframe was specified in X-men Forever. Eternity never said it was at the same time. For all we know LT gets replaced when the multiverse as a whole goes through its cycle. He's around presumably as long as there is a multiverse to maintain a balance through. Beyond my own speculation however Eternitys comments are what they are we are not privy to their inner workings, but they remain.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I suppose the same way that different Jean Greys are able to wield the PF.I'd be so bold as to state that I unequivocally think that PF>THOTU.
Thank you for a straight and honest answer. Cosmic Flame.
I don't know why GS is trying so hard to avoid saying that.
As far as what happened with the LT...The problem with dealing with a being like that is that one can never be sure of motivation, power, desire, ability, etc.
Yes I fully agree. LT has shown that at times he is willing to give an appearance of being defeated, when it suits his purpose.
I don't really like using this reasoning as an escape route though, since it has the power to explain away his low showing as well.
Like the so often mentioned 'battle' with Dr Strange, where it seems Dr Strange gets his way.
Also, because of his role in the MU, it's difficult for me to think that he was simply defeated and the multiverse would just continue orderly as usual.
I fully agree. The treatment of LT isn't consistent. At times he seems to be multiuniversal, at times he is not.
For all we know, after Infinity Abyss, while living his life of peace and contemplation, Thanos stumbled across a strange fungus or herb in his garden. It was all just a dream...
Well yeah that could happen, but again it would be way too dangerous a precedent to set, since this could destroy almost any other evidence
used for arguments here as well.
Dear GS
I was hoping to get a discussion , but it seems you prefer to litter your replies with personal attacks (count the number of times you use ignorant, ignorance) or mentions of misconception riddened post, without saying anything else.
I take it then that the lack of response to my points is that you concede my arguments in those areas.
But I guess the post isn't all a loss, since right at the end you at least seem ready to talk evidence. It's about an incidental point about PF VS LT, not really the subject of this thread which least you forget is about HOTU...., but what the heck... Convince me...
The difference between the Phoenixes low showings and LTs are that they are explained away on panel. Its stated by captions, supporting characters and so on. Be it self imposed psychic circuit breakers, higher priorities or whatever its stated on panel, in bios, plus the Phoenix has consistent high end feats to back that up and support them being on the whole PIS/CIS. (Not in all cases mind you, Rachel is a prime example)
As always I'm read to be convinced, as far as i know, your explainations of low showings of PF have never being backed by all the evidence you mention.
It's along the lines of "she allowed herself to die... because she otherwise couldnt die..." kind of reasoning...
Feel free to post the evidence, it doesn't seem hard, the way you write about "captions", "supporting characters".,"bios"
Originally posted by Richrf
Dear GSI was hoping to get a discussion , but it seems you prefer to litter your replies with personal attacks (count the number of times you use ignorant, ignorance) or mentions of misconception riddened post, without saying anything else.
I take it then that the lack of response to my points is that you concede my arguments in those areas.
Richie my friend were you or were you not ignorant to some key issues which affect the characters in question? If the answer is yes then see my post not as a personal attack but instead as me more bluntly than you'd like just telling it how i see it. Regradless of your lack of knowledge on specific areas you still criticise as if you are an authority on the subject. Not a good thing to do.
What points have you brought up that i havent responded to? 😕
Originally posted by Richrf
But I guess the post isn't all a loss, since right at the end you at least seem ready to talk evidence. It's about an incidental point about PF VS LT, not really the subject of this thread which least you forget is about HOTU...., but what the heck... Convince me...As always I'm read to be convinced, as far as i know, your explainations of low showings of PF have never being backed by all the evidence you mention.
It's along the lines of "she allowed herself to die... because she otherwise couldnt die..." kind of reasoning...
Feel free to post the evidence, it doesn't seem hard, the way you write about "captions", "supporting characters".,"bios"
Forget that. Im not retreading past arguments and posting scans for someone so critical and dismissive despite admitting to not being the most clued up on the area. With that in mind i dont feel obligated to 🙁
If you wish to see some of the evidence ive referred to theres an ever so handy search function accessible at the top of this forum. Just type in "Phoenix". Let me know how it goes. 😄