Originally posted by Lucid Lui
Nightwing DID graduate to the JLA and led it very well during the Obsidian Age arc. It was an all new JLA line-up, but he did a great job leading a team in very extreme circumstances.
I don't mean to knock Nightwing, but imo there is a difference in leading the premier team and leading the second string, no matter how good that second string team is. If he were in the JLA for a long period consistantly leading the team though the most dangerous missions on earth (in DC anyway) then I would consider him in the same league as Cap and Cyke. I'm not saying he couldn't, just that he hasn't yet.
As for Superman, I agree he is a great symbol and very well respected but in my opinion Wonder Woman or Batman would make a better battle field commander than Superman. The problem is that in the JLA Superman tends to be the heart and image of the team and they use Batman as the brains. They have to find a way to showcase other characters instead of Big Blue. And thus he doesn't take on the "lead" the JLA the same way Cap leads the Avengers.
Originally posted by TheKahnWell, considering the circumstances under which he was leading, i'd say, this time, he was leading as well as Cap or Cyke would of. The earth was pretty much going to hell when he started leading the team. All the water was shifting towards Atlantis causing worldwide disasters, he didn't know whether the original JLA'ers were dead or alive, and a he was leading a group that had just been slapped together. He did a great job, which to me showed that he'll definately be as good leader as Cap and Cyke someday soon.
I don't mean to knock Nightwing, but imo there is a difference in leading the premier team and leading the second string, no matter how good that second string team is. If he were in the JLA for a long period consistantly leading the team though the most dangerous missions on earth (in DC anyway) then I would consider him in the same league as Cap and Cyke. I'm not saying he couldn't, just that he hasn't yet.
But i agree that's he just short of their level as it stands today.
I don't mean to knock Nightwing, but imo there is a difference in leading the premier team and leading the second string, no matter how good that second string team is. If he were in the JLA for a long period consistantly leading the team though the most dangerous missions on earth (in DC anyway) then I would consider him in the same league as Cap and Cyke. I'm not saying he couldn't, just that he hasn't yet.
He even lead several of the JLAers and many other big guns in his days. Such as Kyle GL and Wally Flash.
Deathstroke and Batman both regard him as probably the best leader and tactician there is. Batman came to Nightwing to lead during the Crisis. Deathstroke came to Nightwing to "TEACH" his daughter tactics and strategy. Both recently.
And you consider X Men a premier team why? Most Titans teams would have mopped most X Teams. Nightwing was handling a lot more power.
Originally posted by pr1983That's all teams homie...
x-men are a premier team for one simple reason, they achieve things they individually couldnt, they're more than the sum of their parts, and they've taken down magneto, apocalypse...
And getting people to BLINDLY follow you anywhere you lead them, and have them feel secure and like nothing wrong can happen while you're there, is the sign of a good leader. This is the principal even Governments and militaries use.
And there's NO arguing that people would follow Superman ANYWHERE before anyone else listed here.
Originally posted by Juntai
And getting people to BLINDLY follow you anywhere you lead them, and have them feel secure and like nothing wrong can happen while you're there, is the sign of a good leader. This is the principal even Governments and militaries use.
And there's NO arguing that people would follow Superman ANYWHERE before anyone else listed here.
I never said Superman was a bad leader...
but he's no tactician is he? he has strengths and flaws, just like anyone who leads...
Originally posted by pr1983It asked for the best leader, not tactician.
I never said Superman was a bad leader...but he's no tactician is he? he has strengths and flaws, just like anyone who leads...
In still Supes is still no slouch as a tactician, as that's how he actually defeats many of his enemies. [Many of his enemies are just FAR too powerful for anyone to just BEAT. Mxy, Queen of Fables anyone?] Just his JLA version doesn't justify it as per my Batman explanation earlier in the thread.
In DC Universe, merely hearing/reading stories or seeing Superman made thousands want to go become heros themselves.
The entire population of Metropolis was described as 'feeling invincible' before Superman's death, and when he died, they were completely horrified and realised how petty and small they actually were. If Superman could die... . .
You see what I'm saying?
Superman literally guides worlds with his presence.
He's a true leader.
Oh, i completely agree with most of your post, but the thing that always struck me about Superman is that he feels so protective of everyone around him that he'd rather do everything himself (because in most cases he can). I think he prefers being a solo hero. I think the type of leader that he is, the sort of "lead by example" way is too different to the likes of cyke and cap to be compared...
This boils down to what you define as a leader.
Superman inspires confidence and faith - for example, in the first Crisis on Infinite Earths:
Halo - "There goes Superman, Changeling, the new Dr Light can't stop HIM!"
Beast Boy - "Yup! All the problems seem to go 'Poof' when ol' red S is around!"
Superman's an inspirational leader.
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Now Captain America is a tactical leader.
Remember in JLA/Avengers when they had discovered who was behind the plot to destroy everyone? Jonn hooked Cap America up to everyone's minds and they kicked ass.
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There are two different kinds of leader: Supes is the best at being his type and Captain is the best at being his.
Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
This boils down to what you define as a leader.Superman inspires confidence and faith - for example, in the first Crisis on Infinite Earths:
Halo - "There goes Superman, Changeling, the new Dr Light can't stop HIM!"
Beast Boy - "Yup! All the problems seem to go 'Poof' when ol' red S is around!"
Superman's an inspirational leader.
---------
Now Captain America is a tactical leader.
Remember in JLA/Avengers when they had discovered who was behind the plot to destroy everyone? Jonn hooked Cap America up to everyone's minds and they kicked ass.
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There are two different kinds of leader: Supes is the best at being his type and Captain is the best at being his.
Once again, JLA/Avengers as an example now, who LED the charge? Who did everyone follow in?
Superman.
Originally posted by pr1983
Oh, i completely agree with most of your post, but the thing that always struck me about Superman is that he feels so protective of everyone around him that he'd rather do everything himself (because in most cases he can). I think he prefers being a solo hero. I think the type of leader that he is, the sort of "lead by example" way is too different to the likes of cyke and cap to be compared...
I was thinking the same thing 😄
Besides the JLA seem more like a force of nature than a "team". I mean each character is so powerful that they are more independant of each other than say the X-Men.
Originally posted by JuntaiOk. All your love and all my dislike for the character aside, there's really no other place for him on the list is there? All the others share the same leadership qualities. Cap and Cyke are probably even and Nightwing's probably as close as you can get to them. Nightwing has the potential to someday make this a three way tie. I think he'd actually make a better leader than Batman because he's easier to trust and he doesn't spend hid downtime trying to find ways to f**k up his teammates. Instead of being upset about where you think Supes shouldn't be, tell us where you think he should be. Please don't say "Not last"
Too tough to tell.Supes last though?
They go to Batman because he's the "detective", but surely everyone follows Superman's lead.When you read the captions of when other characters meet Superman, most all of them inform you that he's their inspiration, their leader, and they all in one way or another, follow his lead. He commands the respect and admiration of entire galaxies. Please.
Originally posted by TheKahnThat's a much nicer way of saying it. & I agree mostly, but if one of Nightwing's teams sticks around long enough, he'll still eventually attain the seasoning Cap & Cyke have. It would be cool to see NW running the JLA and perhaps even bossing Bats around. He's been a hero since he was a lil kid and he was raised by one of the greatest tacticians around. He IS leadership material.
1. Tie- Cap and Cyke
3. Nightwing
4. SupermanCap and Cyke both have a lot of leadership experience leading the top two teams in the Marvel Universe. One bosses around Thor and the other bosses around Wolverine, and that has to be tough enough. When the world is about to end, you want one of these two to leading the guys who are going to save it.
Nightwing has run the Titians and Outsiders, but until he graduates to the JLA and actively leads it, he is behind thoes two.
Superman, however, is the guy you want ON your team, not nessearily leading it. Others have said it, he is a good role model but depends on Batman's brains too much. He could raise an army but somebody else would come up with the plan of attack.
The reason I'd give Cap the edge over Superman is because despite his super-soldier enhancements he is still very much a human and not invincible. Superman on the other hand is practically a god and people can't help but be inspired and have confidence if hes on their side. Superman often wonders if he'd have the same courage were he powerless like Batman, but we know Cap does possess that courage and will lead a team no matter what (i.e. confronting Thanos who had the Infinity Gems, despite having next to no chance).
I did good......But here's my list. Cap is first for one reason. He is like Superman, but not as Super. He leads a team filled with beings that can squash him if they wanted to, but they don't. Thor follows his commands. THOR!! The arrogant OdinSon himself!! They follow him, and he inspires them, just as Clark does. Even Spiderman, who can beat the stuffing outta Cap, hero worships him. That says alot to me.
Cyke is next simply cuz he puts up with Logan. That and his team is arguably the most underpowered in Comics, but they fight and defeat planetary threats. His tacticians skill is brilliant, and he brings a cohesion to the team that no other team in comics has imo. Go Cyke!!
Nightwing is next because he's lead teams of teens against Trigon, a Demon God who conquerored his universe in his double digits. Many other big threats as well. He isn't the most powerful in his team, but they follow him nonetheless. I was reading The Future is Now, and Superboy, a guy who could crush Nightwings head admitted his natural leadership of the team. Nightwing will eventually tie up with Cyke and Cap if DC uses him right.
Superman i don't see as a true leader, though many fans do. If i was on a team with Superman, i'd probably think we have a good chance of winning whatever conflicts arise too. Superman is extremely powerful by earth standards. Extremely!! I see Clark as the guy on the football team who can run fast, hit hard and catch. Plus he never makes you feel like a loser if he has to pick up the slack. But he isn't imo, the qb. (F#$% Smallville!!) Go to guy, but not the leader. He's the guy the captain tries to set the standard by. Superman doesn't need to be the leader.