Shameful: This is the world's view on Guantanamo Bay.

Originally posted by Darth Revan
Isn't it incredibly obvious that throwing people into jail for years at a time without telling them why they are there or giving them any trial implies a police state, or something headed in that direction? How could you NOT see that?

I think because of this:

Originally posted by docb77
I voted for Bush

and that he seems to think this supports his point of view:

Originally posted by docb77
Do we have the same definition of facism here?
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

It's funny how some people can be so misguided, even when the evidence has shown the fallacy - there's that word again - of their own position. Actually, maybe 'misguided' is the wrong word...

Oh, it now seems that kids were/are being held at Guantanamo, too:

UPI Source

Group says children held at Guantanamo

LONDON, May 28 (UPI) -- A British legal rights group says more than 60 of the detainees of the U.S. detention camp in Guantanamo Bay were under 18 at the time of their capture.

The findings by the group Reprieve directly contradicted the Bush administration's assurances to the British government that no children were being held, The London Independent reported on Sunday.

The group alleges that 10 detainees still being held were 14 or 15 when they were seized. Some were child soldiers who were held in solitary confinement, repeatedly interrogated and allegedly tortured, the newspaper said.

Lawyers for Reprieve say the latest figures were developed after the U.S. Defense Department released the first ever list of Guantanamo detainees earlier this month. The attorneys say they were able to confirm that 17 detainees on the list were under 18 when taken to the camp and another seven were probably juveniles. The group says they have credible evidence that another 37 inmates were under 18 when they were seized.

A senior Pentagon spokesman insisted that no one now being held at Guantanamo was a juvenile, the newspaper said.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Oh, it now seems that kids were/are being held at Guantanamo, too:

UPI Source

[B]Group says children held at Guantanamo

LONDON, May 28 (UPI) -- A British legal rights group says more than 60 of the detainees of the U.S. detention camp in Guantanamo Bay were under 18 at the time of their capture.

The findings by the group Reprieve directly contradicted the Bush administration's assurances to the British government that no children were being held, The London Independent reported on Sunday.

The group alleges that 10 detainees still being held were 14 or 15 when they were seized. Some were child soldiers who were held in solitary confinement, repeatedly interrogated and allegedly tortured, the newspaper said.

Lawyers for Reprieve say the latest figures were developed after the U.S. Defense Department released the first ever list of Guantanamo detainees earlier this month. The attorneys say they were able to confirm that 17 detainees on the list were under 18 when taken to the camp and another seven were probably juveniles. The group says they have credible evidence that another 37 inmates were under 18 when they were seized.

A senior Pentagon spokesman insisted that no one now being held at Guantanamo was a juvenile, the newspaper said. [/B]

indeed there is...not to mention the cases of them being taught how to read and write while there and being able to support their families after their release because of it

and i personally thought that the old guantanamo where it was used as a camp for keeping people with aids and HIV from Haiti who were fleeing persecution, from entering the US was more of a scandal than its current use

Originally posted by jaden101
indeed there is...not to mention the cases of them being taught how to read and write while there and being able to support their families after their release because of it

Oh, I guess I misunderstood the nature of a detention camp! It's actually kind of like summer school, right? Wow, how nice...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Oh, I guess I misunderstood the nature of a detention camp! It's actually kind of like summer school, right? Wow, how nice...

whats that all about?...i cant point out some good things that have actually came about because of people being held in guantanamo without you getting all worked up?

Children forcibly displaced from their home country. Hooded and bound. Put in a detention camp indefinitely. Subjected to torture...BUT, they learn to read and write...Oh, that's OK then.

You're right. When good things like that are balanced with the bad, it makes everything OK.

Children forcibly displaced from their home country. Hooded and bound. Put in a detention camp indefinitely. Subjected to torture...BUT, they learn to read and write...Oh, that's OK then.

once again all i need to do is refer to the red cross report...given that they are the only organization to have visited guantanamo then only their findings are valid...the UN report is not

they stated

"humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions."

they gave no mention of it being conducted on children although if it were the case im sure they would have highlighted it to the extreme

you also neglect to mention that while 60 were under 18 only 3 of those were under 16 and were all released a long time ago (not to mention that they were held in an entirely different facility seperate from the adults called camp iguana and which now is no longer open anyway)

not to mention the fact that the boy who was featured on a panorama documentary was actually thankful for the time he spent in guantanamo and the education he recieved

i know how you like to listen to the testimonies of the people who were held in guantanamo bay...so why ignore this particular case?

you also neglect to mention the fact that there were over 8000 child soldiers fighting for the taliban and since then many of them have managed to be disarmed and reintegrated into normal life because of the fall of the taliban

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I think because of this:

and that he seems to think this supports his point of view:

It's funny how some people can be so misguided, even when the evidence has shown the fallacy - there's that word again - of their own position. Actually, maybe 'misguided' is the wrong word...

You some kind of idiot? I don't always agree with Bush, I voted for him because he was a better choice than his opponent. I haven't seen a politician yet that I would comfortably campaign for.

As far as that post, did you even bother to read it? I was asking in what way the US resembled that definition.

You're pretty good at bashing people with an argument different from yours, not so good at actually arguing with logic.

Originally posted by jaden101
not to mention the fact that the boy who was featured on a panorama documentary was actually thankful for the time he spent in guantanamo and the education he recieved

That point would be valid except for that he is likely only grateful because being in prison was better than being a child soldier in a poor country where he had no opportunities to become literate. It doesn't make imprisoning children forced to work as child soldiers acceptable, it just means their home countries totally suck. We could maybe try to fix things over there, rather than kidnapping kids and teaching them to read in prison..?

Originally posted by jaden101
once again all i need to do is refer to the red cross report...given that they are the only organization to have visited guantanamo then only their findings are valid...the UN report is not

The UN report is not invalid, it is simply less explicit.

Originally posted by jaden101
you also neglect to mention that while 60 were under 18 only 3 of those were under 16 and were all released a long time ago (not to mention that they were held in an entirely different facility seperate from the adults called camp iguana and which now is no longer open anyway)

If you read my original post, you will see that I state that it "seems that kids were/are" being held there. The secrecy surrounding the facility means that a definitive answer is nearly impossible.

Originally posted by jaden101
not to mention the fact that the boy who was featured on a panorama documentary was actually thankful for the time he spent in guantanamo and the education he recieved

I haven't seen the Panorama documentary, but I'm sure you can appreciate the fact that young minors in a scary, foreign environment are easy prey for adults to manipulate. The fact that this kid was one of the select few to get a couple of English lessons does not make the place any less reprehensible.

Originally posted by jaden101
i know how you like to listen to the testimonies of the people who were held in guantanamo bay...so why ignore this particular case?

Again, the very existence of the place is an abomination to the freedom and liberty proclaimed by the US administration. Regardless of the cosmetic facade, my disgust for it remains.

Originally posted by jaden101
you also neglect to mention the fact that there were over 8000 child soldiers fighting for the taliban and since then many of them have managed to be disarmed and reintegrated into normal life because of the fall of the taliban

Yeah, I failed to mention that because it has no relevancy to the situation with Guantanamo Bay. "They were treated badly before, so it might as well continue" - That seems to be your argument here.

Originally posted by docb77
You some kind of idiot? I don't always agree with Bush, I voted for him because he was a better choice than his opponent. I haven't seen a politician yet that I would comfortably campaign for.

Your poor judgement is of no concern to me.

Originally posted by docb77
As far as that post, did you even bother to read it? I was asking in what way the US resembled that definition.

Ask your mommy to help if you need to spoon-feeding.

Originally posted by docb77
You're pretty good at bashing people with an argument different from yours, not so good at actually arguing with logic.

That's amsuing considering your opening salvo. I guess I can add 'hypocrite' to the growing list of derogatory terms that you can happily apply your character.

The UN report is not invalid, it is simply less explicit.

its invalid in the fact that like most peoples opinions...its based on media reports...not to mention that the UN as an organisation have a political axe to grind with the US anyway

I haven't seen the Panorama documentary, but I'm sure you can appreciate the fact that young minors in a scary, foreign environment are easy prey for adults to manipulate.

i cam agree with that to an extent although 16 and 17 year olds arent the naive little kids the media would have people believe

Again, the very existence of the place is an abomination to the freedom and liberty proclaimed by the US administration. Regardless of the cosmetic facade, my disgust for it remains.

i agree that its not a great solution because it really isnt solving a problem yet with all the bad press it gets throughout the world is probably creating more....it was described as the best recruiting propaganda for al qaeda ever...

but as for the afront to liberty etc...like i said before....its highly unlikely that all of the people there are merely innocent victims of a huge misscarriage of justice...its also equally unlikely that they are all terrorists hell bent of the total destruction of the west

Yeah, I failed to mention that because it has no relevancy to the situation with Guantanamo Bay. "They were treated badly before, so it might as well continue" - That seems to be your argument here.

my point is that child soldiers are as equally dangerous as afult soldiers so what do you do with them...take their guns and say "run along kid...go play with your...uuhhh...toy guns"...you have to process them somehow as well...especially if they've been trying to blow your head off

Originally posted by jaden101
its invalid in the fact that like most peoples opinions...its based on media reports...not to mention that the UN as an organisation have a political axe to grind with the US anyway

Again, the reason it is not explicit is because of the restrictions placed on any organisation wishing to conduct a free review of it.

Originally posted by jaden101
i cam agree with that to an extent although 16 and 17 year olds arent the naive little kids the media would have people believe

True, but any teenager placed in a situation like Guantanamo Bay would have great difficulty in resisting any sort of manipulation. Most adults would too, for that matter.

Originally posted by jaden101
i agree that its not a great solution because it really isnt solving a problem yet with all the bad press it gets throughout the world is probably creating more....it was described as the best recruiting propaganda for al qaeda ever...

Yeah, this is another example of how the US is shooting itself in the foot in regards to the supposed moral high-ground it holds. If we can see the hypocrisy of it, then any extremist organisation could have a field-day with it.

Originally posted by jaden101
but as for the afront to liberty etc...like i said before....its highly unlikely that all of the people there are merely innocent victims of a huge misscarriage of justice...its also equally unlikely that they are all terrorists hell bent of the total destruction of the west

This is undoubtably true. However, the process of extraction from their home-countries, and the experiences they are subjected to at the facility means that the margin of error as to who is truly guilty, and who is not, should be extremely slim. Sadly, the reports do not suggest that this is true. You cannot legitmately take people from their country and place them in a detention centre simply because of their ethnicity and location at the time of extraction. It's too broad a scale.

Originally posted by jaden101
my point is that child soldiers are as equally dangerous as afult soldiers so what do you do with them...take their guns and say "run along kid...go play with your...uuhhh...toy guns"...you have to process them somehow as well...especially if they've been trying to blow your head off

Again, I agree. However, unless you are going to lock them up forever, holding them without charge and then releasing them with little in the way of explanation is simply going to feed into their malcontent with the enemy.

I appreciate your desire to see a balanced argument. Objectivity is required, but I personally feel that the situation with Guantanamo is simply unacceptable from a nation that extols the virtues of peace, democracy and greater personal liberty to the world. You can't attempt to force those beliefs onto people while at the same time demonstrating antithetical behavior, but you can create a positive impression of them by leading by example.

who'd have ever thought there would be some agreement between both sides of the argument eh

It makes me feel warm and fuzzy when it works out like that...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo

Your poor judgement is of no concern to me.

Ask your mommy to help if you need to spoon-feeding.

That's amsuing considering your opening salvo. I guess I can add 'hypocrite' to the growing list of derogatory terms that you can happily apply your character.

Well, thanks for proving me right.

There was nothing even resembling logic in here.

Originally posted by docb77
Well, thanks for proving me right.

There was nothing even resembling logic in here.

I beg to differ:

1. You voted for Bush = Your judgement is terrible.

2. You can't work things out for yourself (this is another reinforcement of that) = You need to be spoon-fed.

3. You remark about me being a 'basher', yet you opened the post with an 'insult' = You're a hypocrite.

I made that very simple for you. Do you see the logic of it all now?

*Fiingers-crossed, prays to baby Jesus...*

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I beg to differ:

[B]1. You voted for Bush = Your judgement is terrible.

2. You can't work things out for yourself (this is another reinforcement of that) = You need to be spoon-fed.

3. You remark about me being a 'basher', yet you opened the post with an 'insult' = You're a hypocrite.

I made that very simple for you. Do you see the logic of it all now?

*Fiingers-crossed, prays to baby Jesus...* [/B]

1- That's your opinion (wrong though it may be), and while I admit that he sucks as a president, we didn't have any very good choices now did we?

2 - What exactly are you trying to spoon feed me? communism?

3 - Yeah, I insulted you, but if you read the other comments i've left it wasn't the only thing I've said, you on the other hand tend to keep to the insults an leave out the logic. (Hence my compliment on your main debate strategy that I've seen)

PS - Jesus isn't a baby anymore. If you think a little bit I'm sure you'll see the logic of that.

Originally posted by docb77
1- That's your opinion (wrong though it may be), and while I admit that he sucks as a president, we didn't have any very good choices now did we?

Oh dear...Someone (you) is a little slow. You voted for Bush. He is being considered as one of the worst presidents in the history of the US. Therefore, your judgement is terrible. That's a fact m'lad, not an opinion.

Originally posted by docb77
2 - What exactly are you trying to spoon feed me? communism?

Communism? Oh dear (x2). Goo-goo. Here comes the choo-choo train...wait a minute. I said I would do that.

Originally posted by docb77
3 - Yeah, I insulted you, but if you read the other comments i've left it wasn't the only thing I've said, you on the other hand tend to keep to the insults an leave out the logic. (Hence my compliment on your main debate strategy that I've seen)

Is the little baby trying to throw it's rattle? Oh, be a good baby, baby.

Originally posted by docb77
PS - Jesus isn't a baby anymore. If you think a little bit I'm sure you'll see the logic of that.

Actually, he told me he regressed to babydom. Apparently, less is expected of him when he's wearing a diaper. Is that your strategy, too?

Not even worth debating with you. You haven't said anything worth responding to for the past page at least. So now I'll prove I have good judgement and start ignoring you.