Originally posted by debbiejo
Where our Koran expert when you need her, Lil B.It sure does say it.
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
Yea...kill them if they attack you.
You have great reading ability. But let me assist you with an advanced tool. http://secure.hop.com/index.cfm?AFID=158
Originally posted by Gregory
The Koran does not say that. If you actually read the passage:Start no fights, but if someone starts a fight with you, kill them wherever you see them, and retake any land they've taken from you. And don't fight in holy places, unless they attack you there, in which case, kill them. But if they stop attacking you, let hostilities cease.
Well, it's still saying that "it's okay to kill people," but only when they start a war of aggression against you. Most people would probably agree with this, actually.
A self-defensive fighting. It usually does appease the masses.
However Catholicism states, "Judgement is for the Lord." And I believe that also pertains to killing. Hence the "turn the other cheek".
Originally posted by AOR
No true, an educated religion is attempting to establish itself as we speak. Sadly, however, people believe that if the masses want it, it must be accepted. Which is not so. A religion based on openess towards all things, and attempts to find the fine line that connects it all together, is an "educated" religion. However if "religion" can be defined as a belief of a person or people, then yes there are such things as educated religious/religions.
Were you aware that you typed 'attempting to establish'? If so, then you should realise that until this 'educated religion' is recognised, the term shall remain oxymoronic.
Welcome.
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Were you aware that you typed 'attempting to establish'? If so, then you should realise that until this 'educated religion' is recognised, the term shall remain oxymoronic.Welcome.
😮
What I meant to say is it is establishing itself, as in the religion is forming and evolving to match this so called "educated faith".
Originally posted by debbiejo
Where our Koran expert when you need her, Lil B.It sure does say it.
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
Here here!! Im back for some Quran preaching 😛
Originally posted by Gregory
The Koran does not say that. If you actually read the passage:Start no fights, but if someone starts a fight with you, kill them wherever you see them, and retake any land they've taken from you. And don't fight in holy places, unless they attack you there, in which case, kill them. But if they stop attacking you, let hostilities cease.
Well, it's still saying that "it's okay to kill people," but only when they start a war of aggression against you. Most people would probably agree with this, actually.
Gregory,
Debbiejo is right about the verse - its not the full verse, but the context is right.. You have evidently (like many others who come around trying to make an argument about Quran) NOT read the Al Qur'an.
Reading the Quran many times, I have never ever come across the verse which states what you said above.
Who translated that one? Because Yusufali, Shakir or Pickthal certainly have not!
If you are gonna quote from Al Qur'an, please provide the verse number, so that I could remind myself when I pick up the Qur'an.
Let me demonstrate the verses from the ACTUAL Qur'an -
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
009.123
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
025.052
YUSUFALI: Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).
PICKTHAL: So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavour.
SHAKIR: So do not follow the unbelievers, and strive against them a mighty striving with it.
066.009
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
004.084
YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
PICKTHAL: So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah Thou art not taxed (with the responsibility for anyone) except thyself - and urge on the believers. Peradventure Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve. Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
SHAKIR: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
Etc...
I urge you to read the Al Qur'an before you make statements like yours.
Here is a link (for a millionth time in this forum) where any of you guys can look up verses from the Quran.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Not so much instructed to kill - i think the biggest danger with the Quran is that for many this is the only and non nagotiable, non translatable word of god.Having that in mind, all verses can be, and are taken literaly.
Debbiejo is right about the verse - its not the full verse, but the context is right.. You have evidently (like many others who come around trying to make an argument about Quran) NOT read the Al Qur'an.
No, she is not.
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] ]But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fight those who fight you, retake the land they drove you out of, be forgiving when they decist. Which is what I said.
Originally posted by Gregory
No, she is not.Fight those who fight you, retake the land they drove you out of, be forgiving when they decist. Which is what I said.
...where you convininatly ignored all other verses I posted, which do not talk about ''in fight'' but rather 'kafir' infiriority.
As I already said, the danger with the Quran is that for many it is the non-nagotiable, non translatable and non metaphorical word of god.
Having that in mind, it can lead people do take the verses I posted above - literaly. Danger.
Sorry but after reading that, I still don't see anywhere where it says kill unbelievers. It does say kill them slaughter them drive them away if they have done so to you first. And don't become friends with them but instead become friends with people of the same faith, and that Allah will send them to hell.
A message christianity has spread a lot as well...
Originally posted by Fishy
Sorry but after reading that, I still don't see anywhere where it says kill unbelievers. It does say kill them slaughter them drive them away if they have done so to you first. And don't become friends with them but instead become friends with people of the same faith, and that Allah will send them to hell.A message christianity has spread a lot as well...
Then perhaps you have not read what has been written. ''smite them above their necks'' should pretty much give out some kind of a clue.
also
''YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.''
And this one -
''O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight.
If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred:
if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. ''
By telling someone that unbelievers are evil and should not be taken for friends, is another mean of segregation, creating a superioirity complex, which follows many problems we have today.
you evidently think there is nothing wrong with one group of people refusing to take anyone else unlike them for friends on the grounds that they are sinners and are going to hell.
Jews are, in many Islamic countries continuously called pigs and monkeys BECAUSE they are not Muslim. Christians are persecuted in Egypt daily, and Hindus - Hindus are bombed, tortured and killed on the daily bases for being 'kafirs'. The genocide of Hindus by Muslims is an abomination - check the History of India, Pakistan...etc!
Yet, I cannot seem to recall last time I have seen a group of militant Hindus, Buddhists or Jews standing in front of an Islamic country's ambassy burning flags and threatening their lives.
...where you convininatly ignored all other verses I posted, which do not talk about ''in fight'' but rather 'kafir' infiriority.
There's nothing "convenient" about it; I ignored those verses because they have absolutely nothing to do with whether debbiejo's interpretation of that verse is correct. The Koran could order Muslims to commit genocide in a thousand different places, and her interpretation of that particular verse still wouldn't be correct.
Originally posted by GregoryDon't be ridiculous....This is not about me and the verse I chose considering I'm not a student of the Koran.....My original comment was on this statement:
There's nothing "convenient" about it; I ignored those verses because they have absolutely nothing to do with whether debbiejo's interpretation of that verse is correct. The Koran could order Muslims to commit genocide in a thousand different places, and her interpretation of that particular verse still wouldn't be correct.
Not true, the Koran does not say it's okay to kill people, blow up buildings etc.
And the point has been proven otherwise.