Originally posted by Wesker
I'd argue that Traya > DE Sidious in personal combat. Her force powers pushed around three jedi masters like ragdolls, force drain not even considered. DE Sidious, meanwhile, was defeated with the awesome combined power of a weak Luke, Leia, and a child.
Sidious defeated 3 Jedi Masters in ROTS like ragdolls, force storm not even considered.
Janus . . . I'm going to have to politely, but firmly disagree.
I held a copy of Dark Empire in my hand today. I finally found a printed copy in Barnes & Noble. I gave my original set to my cousin, when he moved to New York. I read the comic book again. So I'm full with info about this subject.
Traya is a mighty force to be reckoned with, especially given her mighty instakill technique. However, it cannot be denied that Sidious's technique is more destructive and ultimately more powerful. The best we've seen Traya do is kill three Jedi Masters. Powerful Jedi, to be sure, but in the end - three individuals.
Sidious has obliterated massive ships. So, whereas Traya's casualties - from her instakill - lay in single digits (in KOTOR II) - Sidious's is in the quadruples. He destroyed fleets.
So, while you can make an arguement for personal combat, you won't have such luck in an overall test of feats.
Also, I will ask you to note that - by the time of Dark Empire, Luke is very powerful. He is able to crush an Imperial AT-AT by himself, armed only with a lightsaber. He is able to reflect a blaster bolt from its main canon, and then proceeds to slice its legs. He does it with ease, and I do not jest.
So. Let me spell out the situation.
Luke succumbs to the Dark Side when he confronts Palpatine, for the first time since Palpatine's 'rebirth'. He knows that Palpatine is too powerful, and gives in - trying to destroy the Emperor from the inside out. He falls too far. Under orders from Palpatine, he kidnaps a pregnant Leia. She manages to turn him back. Luke then proceeds to sneak into Palpatine's laboratory, and destroys all but one of his clones. Palpatine then possesses that clone, and they engage in a battle. After a few minutes, Palpatine puts Luke on his ass. Luke then joins the Dark Side again, and goes with Palpatine to execute Leia. Viola! Leia once again manages to convince Luke to stop Palpatine.
So, they fight. Palpatine is once again about to kill Luke when Leia subconsciously performs a feat called 'Luminous Beings'. It combines the Force attunement of herself and Anakin Solo - and then combines it with Luke's. Palpatine and Luke fight again, but then Luke disarms him (literally).
So, Palps then tries to kill them via Force Storm. I should mention this.
The Force Storm takes mere seconds to conjure. Seconds. However, they manage to temporary block him from the Force. He loses control. It consumes his body, and then slowly begins to destroy the ship. They escape. The Imperial fleet explodes.
To wrap it up:
- Force Storms take mere seconds to conjure. Sidious can control their size and power. They can consume individuals standing mere feet away from him, or they can grow to consume entire fleets of ships. This occurs in seconds, in compliance with Sidious's will and thoughts. If I were a gambling man, I'd wager - at maximum - it would take three to five seconds.
- Sidious possesses nearly lethal bolts of Force Lightning. A single blast is enough to kill a few of Luke's Jedi. A few got away with mortal wounds, but died shortly thereafter.
- Sidious possesses training from about 9.5 years after the Battle of Endor. That's all he did. He manipulated the Thrawn Campaign to help focus Imperial morale. He did it from behind-the-scenes, whilst training on Byss. In his younger body, he is stronger, faster, and more agile than Luke (and thus, probably Kreia).
- Sidious (on his DEATH BED), invaded Onderon to take Anakin Solo by force. Anakin and Leia were being protected by New Republic soldiers - and by a large portion of Luke's Jedi. Sidious singlehandedly obliterated their security (again, on his death bed), and mortally wounded a few of the Jedi Knights before moving to possess Leia. He was then shot in the back, by Han Solo.
- Luke - by the time of DE - possessed enough ability and training to singehandedly obliterate an Imperial AT-AT, armed only with a lightsaber.
- Sidious was only defeated when Leia combined her Force Attunement, along with Anakin's, with Luke's. Now, argue all you like here. The Force attunement of a single Skywalker is amazing. They possess the greatest attunement to the Force that we've seen. Multiply that by three, Janus. Weak? Hardly. It's an overwhelming power.
Now. I'm not going to say that DE Sidious is 'teh uberist Sith Lord of all time!!!11!!!'. . . but he's the most powerful entity on this list. His ability for destruction far surpasses Traya.
Far.
She is very powerful. Hell, she has an excellent chance of killing him in single combat. It all just comes down to who the hell gets the instakill in first. Because, when you have two combatants armed with such abilities - it simply amounts to who's quicker on the draw.
Take that away, and you've got a guy who can chuck Force Lightning that is fatal from a single shot. He's younger and stronger than her, in his clone bodies. He's still an undeniable threat when he's an inch from death.
Sorry Janus. I don't think Traya's got this one.
Isn't Sidious the strongest sith lord as said by lightsnake:
Sidious is indeed the strongest of all time, confirmed in several sources, first in the original piece of EU Dark Empire. In that comic, Sidious manages to cheat death several times, forcing his spirit into other bodies. He devours the life force of six billion inhabitants of the world Byss but doesn't kill them, showing control. In addition, at the end, he squares off with Luke in combat and by this point, Luke is referred to as very powerful. Palpatine focuses his rage and annihilates a fleet of ships with a force storm.
There is never anything to indicate this is different from the Sidious we see in the trilogies.
Moreover, when he visits Korriban, he is hailed at by the Sith, mocked by several but in the end they acquiesce to his wish when he demands it of them, saying he gave up everything to the Dark Side...in another source, Dark Lord, I believe, it is revealed Sidious was prophesized as the greatest by the Ancient Sith themselves. The creator of the ancient Sith, Kevin Anderson, vile Dune destroying heretic he is, said he never intended Sidious to be below his creations.
Another argument is 'Why does he never show this in ROTS?"
Same reason why Yoda isn't leaping around Luke like a madman: Both technology constraints...and that he doesn't need to. We could have quiet control from sidious or he could milk a few giant cows, wave his arms and level some buildings...and with Yoda, vaporizing half of Coruscant would probably not be such a good idea.
I'll most certainly say Vader was weaker as was as a lot of Ancient Sith, but probably greater than a lot of others. At the boards I frequent, it's been a huge debate against him and Revan.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
But you base Ragnos being the strongest on what someone said which took place 4,000 years before the PT and a few years after ROTJ someone called Sidious the strongest sith lord and so you deny that for what was said about Ragnos.
We base Ragnos being the strongest one quotes from the Narrator who should know. Quotes from other people, the Sith society and evidence.
Sidious being the strongest however comes from outdated material that was written before TOTJ was even created and from only one very dubious source... With no real on screen evidence to suggest that what he did was as great as was claimed.
What about these?
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:
"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."
Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."
On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."
Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
DE Sourcebook is outdated
The spirit who is it? Why does he know? And what does the greatest mena? Uthar Wynn for instance said Sadow was greater then Ragnos because Sadow conquered and Ragnos did not.. Perhaps thats why he was the greatest. The strongest again how does it know? And the source is outdated
Kevn J. Anderson do you have a link to that?
TFT.net also isn't a canon source, did GL come out and claim it?
EC, likely outdated source.
Just read the threads that lightsnake posted in, all of this has been done already.
Did GL say Ragnos was the greatest? Did GL say Sadow was the greatest? Sidious is the greatest Sith of all time. He managed to keep hidden from the Jedi as being a sith despite the fact he was around them a lot including Yoda and Mace Windu.
You say DE is outdated so if someone wrote a novel that claimed someone else was far greater then Ragnos that would make soruces on Ragnos outdated? And wasn't most of the information you got on Ragnos just rumors? And wasn't he said to be the greatest in KoToR (1 or 2 I forgot) wasn't that said 4,000 years before the PT? Rome was the greatest empire on Earth...thousands of years ago but it isn't any more. Ragnos may have been the strongest of his time but everything that was said about him mostly took place way before the PT.
Do you have links to any of those mentioned sites and quote? Neither did Lightsnake.
He kept himself hidden from the Jedi? Exar Kun entered Ossus pretending to be a Jedi, converted twenty Knights, and made them believe that they were going to learn from a Jedi Holocron which was actually of the Sith. Is he the strongest now?
And as Fishy said; this debate has been done to the death across dozens of threads. And we're not the ones who ran away.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Did GL say Ragnos was the greatest? Did GL say Sadow was the greatest? Sidious is the greatest Sith of all time. He managed to keep hidden from the Jedi as being a sith despite the fact he was around them a lot including Yoda and Mace Windu.
You say DE is outdated so if someone wrote a novel that claimed someone else was far greater then Ragnos that would make soruces on Ragnos outdated? And wasn't most of the information you got on Ragnos just rumors? And wasn't he said to be the greatest in KoToR (1 or 2 I forgot) wasn't that said 4,000 years before the PT? Rome was the greatest empire on Earth...thousands of years ago but it isn't any more. Ragnos may have been the strongest of his time but everything that was said about him mostly took place way before the PT.
No GL didn't say Ragnos was the greatest, seeing as there is no canon statement on who is the greatest we have to figure it out for ourselves.
Exar Kun also managed to walk into Osus when he was on the Dark Side, kill Odan Urr the most respected member of the Jedi Order, take his Sith holocron, say he Odan proclaimed him a Jedi and made 20 Jedi follow him to learn under him. Thats far more impressive then just hiding yourself, when the force clouds the vision of the Jedi.
The information we have on Ragnos is based on logical conclusions. For instance we know that he lived in the Golden Age of the Sith, this is said in the comic, during that age he ruled surpreme with an iron fist while people were rebelling against him. That shows he is greater then them.
Rome still is the greatest Empire the earth has ever seen.
If a book would come out about somebody else before or after Ragnos, claiming that the person was greater then Ragnos then indeed that person would be greater then Ragnos. What DE did is claim somebody as the best when there was no competition. Thats the mayor difference here.
Also Ragnos lived 5.000 years before the PT and the OT this is true. However his story was written with the knowledge of the movies, therefor the statements made in the comics also refer to the movies. Its not like they said greatest of his time, no just the greatest. Seeing as the movies were known, we know he was greater then them. If the movies would have been invented later on we couldn't have used that statement as an argument.
I'm not going to argue this, either . . . but I will say:
The Essential Chronology is brand spanking new. It isn't an outdated source. It can't even be remotely considered as such. I will also say that more sources cite Sidious as the most powerful than any other Sith Lord, including Ragnos.
Someone can make an arguement that Sidious is the greatest because he reigned over the galaxy, whereas no other Sith Lord ever did. Militaristically, Sidious's empire exceeds all others by far. In 'feat wars', Sidious trumps all of the other Sith Lords.
But the inconsistencies cannot accurately rank his power level. Thus, the theory that he is the most powerful cannot be proven or disproven at this time.
I wouldn't know about that source really, I assumed apparantly wrongfully so that it came from the same time as the other sources Lightsnake mentioned.
And if its a canon source and it literally says he is the most powerful then I guess there is no arguing there... I however would want to see more of this, because if its true, if its stated like that and there isn't anything stated that would make the statement wrong and it is a canon source then all debates against Lightsnake were well useless..