Re: A thought on the idea of an all-good God...
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.
1. God is all-good.
2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.
3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.
4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.
5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.
6. Yet evil exists.
7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.
At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):
Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?
Even from his or her own ignorance?
Just curious.
Re: A thought on the idea of an all-good God...
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.
1. God is all-good.
2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.
3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.
4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.
5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.
6. Yet evil exists.
7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.
At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):
Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?
Even from his or her own ignorance?
Just curious.
With all of your logic...all of your rationalizations...all of your deliberation...all of your deep, deep cogitation--you are still no closer to knowing God or how He operates. To you and most of the non-Christian folk that frequent this forum, you make sense.
But guess what: God does not fit your paradigm. God's ways are past finding out (unless He decides to reveal His ways to you as He did for Moses). But here is the good news: God wants you to know Him and His ways. But God does not want anyone to try and do it per se on their own (using all of the mental processes that you just enumerated). Knowing God is not a mental endeavor. Knowing God "starts" with your heart. Every person who has attempted to know God mentally has failed. God is not Someone that you can bring down to the level of your logic and mental processes. You cannot examine God in a petrie dish under the microscope of your mind. He will not allow you to do it. You must be born again to know God. Case in point, when Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Well, just what in the world is Jesus talking about. Jesus means that entrance into God's Kingdom (God's world as it were) starts with the heart of an individual. In another place Jesus told a man, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” I thought Jesus said the Kingdom of God does not come with observation (meaning it is not some political power that will manifest and be visible). The word "see" connotes and means "to know and/or experience." So back to your logical deductions. The gist is this: you want answers? Then you are going to have to discover them the way that God has revealed in His Word. Otherwise your thirst for answers will never be quenched. You will wander through life asking yourself these same questions until you die. You will convince yourself (if you haven't already) that you make sense and God (if He exists you may think to yoursefl) does not make sense. You will pride yourself on your deductions and seeming wisdom and come to the conclusion (if you haven't already) that you are the brilliant one and God is illogical and nonsensical. Your lifeguard example attempts to pigeon-hole God into your mode of thinking. But God's ways are higher than our ways. I have tried to refrain from quoting Scripture but this one is just so apropos.
Isaiah 55:9
“ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
And this one is also germane:
Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
At long last this one:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
If you want answers then I encourage you to seek them on God's terms. Knowing God's ways (modus operandi) starts with humility (knowing that relative to God you are inferior), If you can't humble yourself before God (you may not be ready to do it now, but you will when you stand in His awesome presence) then you have wasted your time writing that post. If the preceding is true then your motive was not sincere to begin with and you just perhaps wanted to make yourself look good and sound erudite and scholarly. But I give you the benefit of the doubt, that your heart is right and that you do want answers to your questions.
Originally posted by Storm
I don' t think God will mind us exercising our critical thinking skills.
You haven't understood a word that I have written. I said knowing God starts with the heart....It is not your mind that gets born again it is your "heart." The mind must be "renewed" with the Word of God but the heart is where God dwells once we are born again. God does not inhabit our mind. So let me reiterate. Knowing God "starts" with the heart
Re: Re: A thought on the idea of an all-good God...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
With all of your logic...all of your rationalizations...all of your deliberation...all of your deep, deep cogitation--you are still no closer to knowing God or how He operates. To you and most of the non-Christian folk that frequent this forum, you make sense.But guess what: God does not fit your paradigm. God's ways are past finding out (unless He decides to reveal His ways to you as He did for Moses). But here is the good news: God wants you to know Him and His ways. But God does not want anyone to try and do it per se on their own (using all of the mental processes that you just enumerated). Knowing God is not a mental endeavor. Knowing God "starts" with your heart. Every person who has attempted to know God mentally has failed. God is not Someone that you can bring down to the level of your logic and mental processes. You cannot examine God in a petrie dish under the microscope of your mind. He will not allow you to do it. You must be born again to know God. Case in point, when Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is [b]within
you.” Well, just what in the world is Jesus talking about. Jesus means that entrance into God's Kingdom (God's world as it were) starts with the heart of an individual. In another place Jesus told a man, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” I thought Jesus said the Kingdom of God does not come with observation (meaning it is not some political power that will manifest and be visible). The word "see" connotes and means "to know and/or experience." So back to your logical deductions. The gist is this: you want answers? Then you are going to have to discover them the way that God has revealed in His Word. Otherwise your thirst for answers will never be quenched. You will wander through life asking yourself these same questions until you die. You will convince yourself (if you haven't already) that you make sense and God (if He exists you may think to yoursefl) does not make sense. You will pride yourself on your deductions and seeming wisdom and come to the conclusion (if you haven't already) that you are the brilliant one and God is illogical and nonsensical. Your lifeguard example attempts to pigeon-hole God into your mode of thinking. But God's ways are higher than our ways. I have tried to refrain from quoting Scripture but this one is just so apropos.Isaiah 55:9
“ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.And this one is also germane:
Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!At long last this one:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.If you want answers then I encourage you to seek them on God's terms. Knowing God's ways (modus operandi) starts with humility (knowing that relative to God you are inferior), If you can't humble yourself before God (you may not be ready to do it now, but you will when you stand in His awesome presence) then you have wasted your time writing that post. If the preceding is true then your motive was not sincere to begin with and you just perhaps wanted to make yourself look good and sound erudite and scholarly. But I give you the benefit of the doubt, that your heart is right and that you do want answers to your questions. [/B]
I wrote that? Man, I need to find a book publisher.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You haven't understood a word that I have written. I said knowing God starts with the heart....It is not your mind that gets born again it is your "heart." The mind must be "renewed" with the Word of God but the heart is where God dwells once we are born again. God does not inhabit our mind. So let me reiterate. Knowing God "starts" with the heart
The Heart has nothing to do with your thought processes. It just pumps blood....