Who do you think will be stronger LOTF Luke, or KOTOR 3 Revan

Quite frankly, deception, the first time I left was because I was...exceptionally annoyed and my friends at TFN talked me into it. IT was also at a stressful point involving my personal life. Another friend talked me into coming back, recently.

Deception, thank you very much for treating me with some courtesy here (And I gotta say, Nimor Imphraezl, rocking avatar). But here's my problem: I don't see how what I'm arguing for is proven wrong. We've seen Palpatine do things above the Ancient Sith's level and he's been described as a divinity and a pure embodiment of darkness. His credentials were spelled out and the Chronology, an official, very, very 'up there' source declared him the single most powerful Sith ever.

The Ancient Empire, frankly, never truly impressed me when I read about them. Maybe that was Ludo, maybe it was Simus, but honestly, Ragnos has little going for him. He was a brilliant and strong, leader true, but why does this automatically make him 'Mr. Godly Sith?' I even posted the page with the quote calling Sidious the best.

Like I said, it's not that I'm against the Ancient Sith too much, I just feel they're overrated, especially given their battle credentials.

You might want to reread the Golden Age of the Sith, and Fall of the Sith Empire with an open mind and reevaluate the data, Lightsnake. Simply saying you "aren't impressed" with their status and then going on to point out every single instance in which Sidious is propped up in a series created before the ancient Sith even existed in canon is favoring one form of evidence over another. I certainly have never been one to say Sidious is the worst sith of all time, and he certainly was clever to steal power the way he did. However, the idea that he can compare with sith lords whose partial knowledge made rogue jedi virtual demigods and whose teachings helped make Sidious' power impressive in the first place is ridiculous. Ragnos ruled according to narration, "With an iron fist for over a century." Both he and Simus (Whom he defeated and allowed to live and serve on the Sith council- and indeed, Simus had the power to maintain not only his life, but his prestige) were centuries old, as Faunus pointed out in a scan. They were neck deep in the very knowledge that made newer sith like Nihilus, Exar Kun, Ulic, and Nadd outright ridiculous, and all of those examples were superior to jedi masters with their newfound powers and sith knowledge even though they were barely jedi knights. Ragnos effectively kept people who had enough knowledge of the Force to crush statues with a gesture, break blades with their bare hands, chuck star cores or use force lightning to activate a supernova. On a council of what was at least a half dozen sith lords - ambitious dark siders - Ragnos maintained rule even on his death bed, after a century. I really don't see how Sidious compares to this. Sidious was smart, and he was powerful, but he was not unchallenged nor was he undefeated. And the bulk of his power came from remnants of sith lore, stuff that Ragnos and his kin mastered throughout their long lifetimes and powered with their incredible force potential via their true sith blood.

Anyways, I realize I might never convince you that Sidious is NOT number one, but I've spoken my piece before. And reference material does not create canon nor does it just mutate the source material.

Ok,
1. Sidious was around before AND after the Ancients and was doing his displays of power before and after theirs.

2. They appeared to a primitive people with technology and powers never before seen, of course the Sith thought them gods! That comics say exactly that, same as the Aztecs and the Spaniards

3. Simus was always reknowned for his wisdom rather than his power and a random priestess in the Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire series did the same exact thing simus did, a head in a box. And you know something else? That star throwing? Done with 'weapons on a shop' according to the comic...Ludo never broke a sword with his bare hands, he slammed a CRYSTAL SWORD on a hard stone floor. And when was Ulic superior to masters, he was broguht down by one master and one knigh. Moreover, Ludo led the largest faction of the sith and he loved Marka, of course there wasn't any infighting until he died, that was their law. And Ludo didn't break statues with a gesture, he was furious at that point and using an amulet. Sidious mastered everything Ragnos and his ilk did and everything after. He learned from them, drained power out of their holocrons, along with knowledge and did the same with Korriban and Sith tombs

And Janus? I can prove right now, Sidious is number 1. That post and this:

C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

I think you slept through my post, Lightsnake. But whatever gets you off, man. You take fanboyism to new heights. I don't have the time nor the care to refute you right now, since you're going to argue out of your ass that Sidious is number one regardless of what I say. But don't you fret... I'll get a definitive answer on this and lay it out for all to see, so there's no argument one way or another.

In the meantime, I suggest you seek counselling. Your attachment to a wrinkled, evil old man is disturbing.

Janus....you don't get to wriggle out of this. I just proved that Sourcebooks fit under C canon, which is EU continuity. I have the quote from an LFL source, which I can post here AND link to the scanned page that he is THE strongest. I can post PROOF that sourcebooks and LFL books count, I HAVE posted proof. Face it, Janus: It is over and you have lost

By the same token, your devotion to a tall, muscular dominating male is just as frightening.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Janus....you don't get to wriggle out of this. I just proved that Sourcebooks fit under C canon, which is EU continuity.

But unfortunately, you fail to grasp that the Dark Side Sourcebook is for an RPG, and is a WotC book and not an actual movie or EU companion book. Meanwhile, NEC is a compilation reference piece, as noted on the official site. It's virtually a Star Wars encyclopedia. However, it does not create or validify canon where there's none; and most certainly it does not override sourcematerial. When LucasFilm releases an official statement that parts or all of Golden Age of the Sith has been retconned, I'll entertain that. But your one statement from an article about Sidious in a compilation book does NOT overrule main source material.

I have the quote from an LFL source, which I can post here AND link to the scanned page that he is THE strongest.

You have one line from a reference page. And the comics have LFL stamp on it too, as IKC showed you. Maybe if you stopped ignoring that, we'd reach some kind of agreement.

I can post PROOF that sourcebooks and LFL books count, I HAVE posted proof. Face it, Janus: It is over and you have lost

Again, reference books do not overrule actual sources, and an RPG sourcebook is not canon at all. In fact, I'll be certain to make this clear to you by e-mailing Lucasfilm and getting an official answer.

By the same token, your devotion to a tall, muscular dominating male is just as frightening.

Tall, muscular and dominating male, eh? Given that a lot of thought? lol

Except the LFL is an actual, official source and the link said specifically 'RPG sourcebook'.

And Janus? According to you, newer sources overwrite old ones. So this official source overrides the decade old one. And since the old one never one says that Ragnos or the Ancients> All...well, your argument collapses. And read that line on C Canon. Proof reference books don';t override sources when I've provided a link showing that they have...and yeah, proof that they suddenly can't override sources.

Now, be sure to ask LFL if it's 'official' and if references can retcon old sources. Of course it's not canon, neither is TOTJ. It's 'C' Canon, which the RPG sourcebook info falls under, along with the new-done by LFL's writer who's co written with KJA- NEC!

here's the quote:
C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

Originally posted by hord06
I just want to make it clear that I am not Numan. And believe me if we got down to a serious debate I would slaughter you. I can only see myself losing to Bombarad, IKC, Faunus, Lightsnake and Illustrious. You would be too easy. And why Deception, are you so desperate to convince people that I am some guy named NUMAN. I could point the finger too but I don't think you'll let it go that far TDTD.

Sorry to disappoint you, but i was not the one to convince nor assume it, the belief is actually quite common atm, you bear striking resemblance with Numan's arrogrance and his ignorance.

You would slaughter me? Wow seeing as neither of us have actually gotten serious, and seeing as i never considered myself to being good.

Show me where i'm desperate to convince people that you are Numan, and technically you're right, the guy with the Username Numan, is hardly likely to have Numan as his first/last name.

Also, actions speak louder than words, instead of blatantly yelling, "I WOULD PWN YOU," shut up and actually wait till will we debate. Obviously displaying such arrogrance does not benefit you, if you lost, you would be much more embarrased than if you didnt boast, if you won, no one would care, they would merely agree that you are better but still dislike you in the very fact you are arrogrant of your ability in debating.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quite frankly, deception, the first time I left was because I was...exceptionally annoyed and my friends at TFN talked me into it. IT was also at a stressful point involving my personal life. Another friend talked me into coming back, recently.

Deception, thank you very much for treating me with some courtesy here (And I gotta say, Nimor Imphraezl, rocking avatar). But here's my problem: I don't see how what I'm arguing for is proven wrong. We've seen Palpatine do things above the Ancient Sith's level and he's been described as a divinity and a pure embodiment of darkness. His credentials were spelled out and the Chronology, an official, very, very 'up there' source declared him the single most powerful Sith ever.

The Ancient Empire, frankly, never truly impressed me when I read about them. Maybe that was Ludo, maybe it was Simus, but honestly, Ragnos has little going for him. He was a brilliant and strong, leader true, but why does this automatically make him 'Mr. Godly Sith?' I even posted the page with the quote calling Sidious the best.

Like I said, it's not that I'm against the Ancient Sith too much, I just feel they're overrated, especially given their battle credentials.

Ah i see, well whatever stressful problem you had, i hope its resolved.

The only reason i argue for the Ancient Sith, is they do demonstrate superior feats ( though not by a large margin )

Also none of us dispute him being the Most Powerful Sith Ever, he was the only Sith known to dominate the Galaxy, but which aspect of Power are we talking about? Its quite obvious Political Power is overall superior
to the Power of a single entity. Examples are quite often shown in our world, of the Most Powerful Figures to have ever existed, none of them are depicted to be the Most Powerful in every aspect, and utimately the power that Sidious used to dominate the Galaxy works far better than the brute force abilities and strength the Ancient Sith display.

I feel quite the opposite, its because the Ancient Sith are so obscure and mysterious with various implications in TOTJ/Kotor/JA displaying a fraction of their power - Scepter, Amulet, Instakills, that have led me to believe that they are the most powerful of the most powerful.

Also as the name suggests the Golden Age of the Sith, its honestly implying that Sith's ideals of brute power and force, are realised, thus meaning their champion warriors are created.

In terms of reaching the Sith's true ideals of pure domination, i agree with you. Sidious was the ideal Sith, powerful enough to be one of the most powerful of all time, and the only one intelligent enough to use politics and manipulation effectively.

By Count Dooku, for one? And it's not like he arrived fresh to the fight either. Plus, that's his spin hitting that thing, not his head. Hell, it just knocked him unconcious

I'd like to point out I doubt the participants in that fight were exactly "Fresh" either. (Sadow/Ludo, etc)