Parallax vs These 3 with Power Cosmic

Originally posted by Juntai
Where is that said?

He didn't use holes left over from Crisis, he ABSORBED the energy left over from the Crisis and added them to his power BEFORE doing anything else at all.

Well its not his own power then is it? He empowered himself with energies left over from the crisis, without them he wouldve been nothing, he's akin to Korvac. Able to absorb virtually unlimited amounts of power to augment his might but as standard is a minor. He isnt inherently omnipotent and that is the crux of the matter and is why beings like the abstracts are placed above physical beings such as Galactus and the like who require external energy sources.

Just to further clarify my position heres a scan from Quasar:

Originally posted by Juntai
After that he went to Vanishing point and since "the beginning and the end of time are linked. In essence, a perpetual loop. All I had to do was tighten that loop, and everything in between would cease to exist."

Another example of Parallax not being as powerful as you think him to be. He could never achieve said feat anywhere, anywhen. He had to travel to a place vital to reality a conjunction of space/time before he could even consider achieving anything like that. Theres no evidence he could achieve said feat without having to go to the Vanishing Point.

In Quasar for example Erishkigal a wielder of the StarBrand wanted to take over the multiverse however to do so she had to travel to the nexus of all realities. A place she quite easily could have achived her goal from, however as stated on panel she wasnt even beyond the abstracts. She could never achieve her goal from just anywhere at any time she wanted, she didnt have that scale of power. She did have power enough however to achieve her goal from a focal point of time/space. See what im saying?

Originally posted by Juntai
However, at the beginning of the last comic in the series, we clearly see him pouring reality out of his fingertips. And no where is any outside influence mentioned.

Could you post a scan please because events like this are often ambiguous and open to interpretation. I wouldnt mind seeing if i interpret the scene differently.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well its not his own power then is it? He empowered himself with energies left over from the crisis, without them he wouldve been nothing, he's akin to Korvac. Able to absorb virtually unlimited amounts of power to augment his might but as standard is a minor. He isnt inherently omnipotent and that is the crux of the matter and is why beings like the abstracts are placed above physical beings such as Galactus and the like who require external energy sources.

Just to further clarify my position heres a scan from Quasar:

Another example of Parallax not being as powerful as you think him to be. He could never achieve said feat anywhere, anywhen. He had to travel to a place vital to reality a conjunction of space/time before he could even consider achieving anything like that. Theres no evidence he could achieve said feat without having to go to the Vanishing Point.

In Quasar for example Erishkigal a wielder of the StarBrand wanted to take over the multiverse however to do so she had to travel to the nexus of all realities. A place she quite easily could have achived her goal from, however as stated on panel she wasnt even beyond the abstracts. She could never achieve her goal from just anywhere at any time she wanted, she didnt have that scale of power. She did have power enough however to achieve her goal from a focal point of time/space. See what im saying?

Could you post a scan please because events like this are often ambiguous and open to interpretation. I wouldnt mind seeing if i interpret the scene differently.

He did it all of his own power, they even say that he couldn't possibly be that powerful, and then he says that he's controlling enough power to do anything he wants.

It's in a conversation with Guy Gardner that he reveals the piece about tightening the loop. No mention of outside forces is mentioned anywhere. Everything he does, he does on his own.

While it's not the same as just blinking a universe out of existance, the fact that he can CREATE one, which is an even greater feat to me, proves he could have erased it, but conserved energy for his greater goal by pulling together the beginning and end of time.. which is no small feat in itself.

And the arguement about him absorbing power so that it's not really his feat is fruitless, Galactus does the same thing feeding off of outside sources. Tons of characters are like that.

Without absorbing the power of the rings, the power of OA, the chronal energy in the Crisis, he's just a human.

Parallax in Zero Hour was the sum of these things and is certainly him doing those feats.

I guess it would be up to the thread creator to decide if it's Zero Hour Parallax or not.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't have the scans, I have the TPB right next to my mouse though.

He did it all of his own power, they even say that he couldn't possibly be that powerful, and then he says that he's controlling enough power to do anything he wants.

The crux of the matter is that he is a physical being, he is limited in comparison to those who embody concepts. He is not inherently a major cosmic power. He gained hisstatus in Zero Hour by augmenting his power with an external power source. You've just stated that he used the leftover crisis energies. As such its akin to ranking the Hulk or Apocalypse as major cosmic powers for their virtually unlimited potential. As a physical being who relies on external power sources to augment himself to anywhere near beings such as Eternity in the first place he is not on the same playing field. The power he absorbed isnt inherent to him, it would run out.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's in a conversation with Guy Gardner that he reveals the piece about tightening the loop. No mention of outside forces is mentioned anywhere. Everything he does, he does on his own.

Not the point i was making. Theres no evidence to suggest that Parallax could wipe out reality without having to venture to a conjunction point of space/time. If he was any major power he would've been able to do it on a whim from any place and at any time. Think Thanos with the IG, think Thanos with HOTU, think Phoenix reconstructing a reality in her palm with a thought.

Originally posted by Juntai
While it's not the same as just blinking a universe out of existance, the fact that he can CREATE one, which is an even greater feat to me, proves he could have erased it, but conserved energy for his greater goal by pulling together the beginning and end of time.. which is no small feat in itself.

How he was going to create a new universe is what you need to focus on. He wasnt going to manipulate matter on a universal scale to create a new one in place, he wasnt just going to think one into existence, he was going to manipulate time to bring the universe back into a previous state. Thats not a feat what places him on the highest tier of cosmic powers. Plus its something he never achieved, he only talked about it.

Franklin w/ PC would be a monster. he was strong enough to create a pocket dimension and was basically forced by Ashema to destroy either 616 or the universe of his creation. And considering how PC amps people up, damnnn...

Originally posted by Juntai
And the arguement about him absorbing power so that it's not really his feat is fruitless, Galactus does the same thing feeding off of outside sources. Tons of characters are like that.

Without absorbing the power of the rings, the power of OA, the chronal energy in the Crisis, he's just a human.

Parallax in Zero Hour was the sum of these things and is certainly him doing those feats.

Youre missing the point. The fact that Galactus has to absorb power, that hes reliant on outside sources of power is what places him below the abstracts, those who are power in themselves. The same stands for Parallax. He isnt inherently a major power he relie son outside sources to make him one. He can be taken out by powers like the abstracts, he is not on that level. The Quasar scan illustrated the point quite clearly i thought.

The crux of the matter is that he is a physical being, he is limited in comparison to those who embody concepts. He is not inherently a major cosmic power. He gained hisstatus in Zero Hour by augmenting his power with an external power source. You've just stated that he used the leftover crisis energies. As such its akin to ranking the Hulk or Apocalypse as major cosmic powers for their virtually unlimited potential. As a physical being who relies on external power sources to augment himself to anywhere near beings such as Eternity in the first place he is not on the same playing field. The power he absorbed isnt inherent to him, it would run out.

- As I said... If this is ZERO HOUR PARALLAX, then it is his power, as thats the level he was through the entire thing. It his HIS power now. Other than that, you're just arguing that he's a regular human now. ALL of his power was external. He ABSORBED the energy of the rings. He ABSORBED the energy of the battery and the Guardians. He ABSORBED the power from Crisis. Other than that, he was just... Hal. Are you making this TEST PILOT HAL versus those nasty characters!?

Not the point i was making. Theres no evidence to suggest that Parallax could wipe out reality without having to venture to a conjunction point of space/time. If he was any major power he would've been able to do it on a whim from any place and at any time. Think Thanos with the IG, think Thanos with HOTU, think Phoenix reconstructing a raelity in her palm with a thought.

No there isn't 'on panel evidence', but if you can will a universe INTO existed, you can will one OUT of it, imo.

How he was going to create a new universe is what you need to focus on. He wasnt going to manipulate matter on a universal scale to create a new one in place, he wasnt just going to think one into existence, he was going to manipulate time to bring the universe back into a previous state. Thats not a feat what places him on the highest tier of cosmic powers. Plus its something he never achieved, he only talked about it.

Originally posted by Juntai
- As I said... If this is ZERO HOUR PARALLAX, then it is his power, as thats the level he was through the entire thing. It his HIS power now. Other than that, you're just arguing that he's a regular human now. ALL of his power was external. He ABSORBED the energy of the rings. He ABSORBED the energy of the battery and the Guardians. He ABSORBED the power from Crisis. Other than that, he was just... Hal. Are you making this TEST PILOT HAL versus those nasty characters!?

No. Im not saying any of that at all. Youre still missing the point. The nature of his being means that he will forever be below the likes of the Eternity, those who are power within themselves. He is a physical being who cannot generate power himself, he is reliant on external sources to place him near the level of the higher cosmics. He has merely absorbed vast amounts of energy which enabled him to pull of amazing feats, to temporarily hang with the big boys but the power he absorbed (the leftover crisis energy, the power of the guardians) wasnt infinite or self perpetuating, it was just vast in quantity. He would exhaust it,

Originally posted by Juntai
No there isn't 'on panel evidence', but if you can will a universe INTO existed, you can will one OUT of it, imo.

He was reversing time to achieve the feat. So he could possibly forward time to the Crunch but thats irrelevant. He was stopped. He can be stopped.

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, he was doing it, off of his own power, just WILLING it into existance. He was interupted before he could finish, however, by the heros and Spectre.

Whats all this talk about willing? It doesnt change the fact that he was manipulating chronal energies to achieve the feat.

He was manipulating chronal energies as stated to bring it about. Restoring a universe to a previous state through time reversal is nowhere near the scale of manipulating matter on a universal scale to bring about a NEW universe.

No. Im not saying any of that at all. Youre still missing the point. The nature of his being means that he will forever be below the likes of the Eternity, those who are power within themselves. He is a physical being who cannot generate power himself, he is reliant on external sources to place him near the level of the higher cosmics. He has merely absorbed vast amounts of energy which enabled him to pull of amazing feats, to temporarily hang with the big boys but the power he absorbed (the leftover crisis energy, the power of the guardians) wasnt infinite or self perpetuating, it was just vast in quantity. He would exhaust it,

I will give you that, but for the moment, he was above all but gods wrath. 😉

Whats all this talk about willing? It doesnt change the fact that he was manipulating chronal energies to achieve the feat.

He was manipulating chronal energies as stated to bring it about. Restoring a universe to a previous state through time reversal is nowhere near the scale of manipulating matter on a universal scale to bring about a NEW universe. [/B]

Originally posted by Juntai
I will give you that, but for the moment, he was above all but gods wrath. 😉

Given the Spectres inconsistent showings is that really such a good thing? 😛

Seriously though, what cosmic powers of DC rose to stand against him? Did anyone on the level of Marvels abstracts? If not then you cant even say he was second only to the Spectre.

Originally posted by Juntai
The energies manipulated were his to manipulate. He did no time reversal. He wiped it clean, and started from a blank page, literally. And willed with his own internal energies, previously absorbed, a new universe into creation that only needed time to harden to be completed.

Im not denying that the chronal energies were his absorbed power. The fact is he was STILL employing chronal energies to return his universe to a previous state. The fact that chronal energies were employed tell you his actions were time related. Nothing else.

Im not denying that the chronal energies were his absorbed power. The fact is he was STILL employing chronal energies to return his universe to a previous state. The fact that chronal energies were employed tell you his actions were time related. Nothing else. [/B]

Originally posted by Juntai
No, that's not what he was doing at all. He destroyed the previous universe. He was not returning it to a previous state. He was creating a NEW universe, and writing it's entire history at once. That was part of the appeal as he was trying to get people to join his side. In MY universe, I can make your life perfect. .. etc etc. It wasn't a time manipulation, he destroyed [by tightening the grip of entropy over the universe.] and recreated the universe out of the palms of his hands..

Im confused. If he destroyed the previous universe then can you explain how everyone could still be around when Spectre stopped Parallax from creating a new universe. How does that make sense?

Regardless the fact that as stated he was employing chronal energies to bring about a new universe tells you that he was either reversing or forwarding time. For all we know (if you dispute he was returning the universe to a previous state) he could've been forwarding time to when a new universe was in place. (Presumably following a Big Crunch and a subsequent Big Bang)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im confused. If he destroyed the previous universe then can you explain how everyone could still be around when Spectre stopped Parallax from creating a new universe. How does that make sense?

Regardless the fact that as stated he was employing chronal energies to bring about a new universe tells you that he was either reversing or forwarding time. For all we know (if you dispute he was returning the universe to a previous state) he could've been forwarding time to when a new universe was in place. (Presumably following a Big Crunch and a subsequent Big Bang)

They were there because Waverider, a being of chronal energy himself, gathered them.

"Before Parallax could erase the last vestiges of time, I used my powers to move between the milliseconds of what remained to collect those who would be needed."

Later on, he had to re-merge everyone back to the post-zero-hour-universe.

Originally posted by Juntai
Good point about the chronal energy, however none of that is 'on panel' and would just be speculation. Him building his OWN universe is what's written in the comic.

Scans have been posted before of the scene. Parallax was manipulating chronal energy to bring about a new universe. He was stopped by Spectre, therefore my point still stands.

If he never got to bring about this new universe it seems he altered history on a universal scale which explains the changes in Dc's history brought about by Zero Hour. He certainly never destroyed the universe completely because he never had the chance to bring about a new one.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Scans have been posted before of the scene. Parallax was manipulating chronal energy to bring about a new universe. He was stopped by Spectre, therefore my point still stands.

If he never got to bring about this new universe it seems he altered history on a universal scale which explains the changes in Dc's history brought about by Zero Hour. He certainly never destroyed the universe completely because he never had the chance to bring about a new one.

He did destroy the universe, and built a new one, but they[the heros and spectre] destroyed it, and built a new one, then replaced defeated Hal, with "about to erase reality" Hal, and immediately retconned the whole thing. That's where the time mess-ups and subtle rearanging of history happened.

However, the point still stands, he created his OWN universe out of the palm of his hand, and the previous universe no longer existed at all. Entropy wiped all creation clean.

Originally posted by Juntai
Sounds to me like you're going off of a load of theories rather than what was shown on panel, this is unlike you.

He did destroy the universe, and built a new one, but they[the heros and spectre] destroyed it, and built a new one, then replaced defeated Hal, with "about to erase reality" Hal, and immediately retconned the whole thing. That's where the time mess-ups and subtle rearanging of history happened.

However, the point still stands, he created his OWN universe out of the palm of his hand, and the previous universe no longer existed at all. Entropy wiped all creation clean.

As soon as youre able post scans of Hal creating a new universe. Not just the specific panel but the previous page and the following so as to get a more complete picture.

The destruction of the universe was achieved by travelling to the Vanishing Point and as aforementioned isnt sufficient evidence of Hal being beyond the likes of Eternity. As for the new universe bit scans have been produced saying he achieved it through the manipulation of chronal energies. Until you can provide some evidence that specific point remains unresolved.

He did say he was using chronal energy, but that doesn't change the fact that he destroyed the previous universe and then built a new universe out of his own power on panel.

And while the point remains unresolved on your part, it IS what happened. Everything I've said is supported in the Zero Hour. The old Universe was gone, he built an entire new one, it's even why Spectre came to cast judgement on him, for destroying 'infinite souls'. Not manipulating time.

And I never said he was above Eternity, it was never part of anything I had to say at all. I started this just by asking "Where is that said?" and correcting a few misconceptions you had. But, just so you have my POV on it... often times people confuse importance and position with power, Eternity is important and has a high position in the universe, but has oft been prey to bad showings against characters lower than one proven capable of destroying and creating realities like Parallax.

Originally posted by Juntai
He did say he was using chronal energy, but that doesn't change the fact that he destroyed the previous universe and then built a new universe out of his own power on panel.

True. Ive already analysed the destruction of the previous universe as for creating a new universe its still uncertain as to whether he actually created a universe himself or he manipulated time as the use of chronal energies would imply.

Originally posted by Juntai
And while the point remains unresolved on your part, it IS what happened. Everything I've said is supported in the Zero Hour. The old Universe was gone, he built an entire new one, it's even why Spectre came to cast judgement on him, for destroying 'infinite souls'. Not manipulating time.

If it is what happened then prove it with scans. Constantly telling me so changes nothing. Until conclusively verified with supporting evidence it remains your opinion as far as i can tell.

Originally posted by Juntai
And I never said he was above Eternity, it was never part of anything I had to say at all. I started this just by asking "Where is that said?" and correcting a few misconceptions you had. But, just so you have my POV on it... often times people confuse importance and position with power, Eternity is important and has a high position in the universe, but has oft been prey to bad showings against characters lower than one proven capable of destroying and creating realities like Parallax.

Well i was arguing about their comparative ranking, that was made quite clear. You disputed my comments so to myself and im sure any other readers it appeared you did indeed believe that to be the case.

In your attempt to correct my misconceptions it appears you've had a few of your own cleared up. All in a days work my friend 😛

Your last comment regarding confusion of importance with power and Eternitys defeats again implies that you do indeed Parallax is beyond Eternity, but it seems ive cast doubt in your mind and you are unwilling to commit publicly to any viewpoint. 😉

Eternity has been put at a disadvantage at times but alot of cosmics have low showings which are often outweighed by their feats and their stated positions and relative power levels.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
True. Ive already analysed the destruction of the previous universe as for creating a new universe its still uncertain as to whether he actually created a universe himself or he manipulated time as the use of chronal energies would imply.

If it is what happened then prove it with scans. Constantly telling me so changes nothing. Until conclusively verified with supporting evidence it remains your opinion as far as i can tell.

Well i was arguing about their comparative ranking, that was made quite clear. You disputed my comments so to myself and im sure any other readers it appeared you did indeed believe that to be the case.

In your attempt to correct my misconceptions it appears you've had a few of your own cleared up. All in a days work my friend 😛

Your last comment regarding confusion of importance with power and Eternitys defeats again implies that you do indeed Parallax is beyond Eternity, but it seems ive cast doubt in your mind and you are unwilling to commit publicly to any viewpoint. 😉

Eternity has been put at a disadvantage at times but alot of cosmics have low showings which are often outweighed by their feats and their stated positions and relative power levels.

But I do have the book, and have quoted a few pages from it now,[Given what Steel said, what Waverider said, the way Hal was tempting them, and what Spectre said he was there for.] I could open to the final 2 comics in the series, and probably quote 2 dozen times they mention him destroying and rebuilding the universe, but that doesn't mean anything next to your random speculation based on frames you saw a long time ago, does it?

How about these?[A couple random examples]
Hal: "How about a Krypton that never blew up Superman? Wouldn't you like to regain lost time Captain Atom? They say that you can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs.... So I had to erase all of existance to build a far better reality."

Later on:
[Just so you have the full quote.. or rather, full page..]
Spectre: "Emerald hypocite! You've condemed an infinite number of souls to death!

Hal: They will live again!

Spectre: It is not up to you do decide who lives and dies!

Hal:None of you understand! I'm tired of hurting old friends-- but I'll do what I have to. The Guardians found that out.

Waverider: Captain Atom, Ray, Green Lantern, Darkstar, I need you to begin absorbing the Plasma Energy Universe that Parallax has created before it begins to solidify!

Needless to say all you need to see the first couple of pages the last issue of Zero Hour, and see Hal walking across white pages [since entropy erased the reality already.] and then pouring an entire universe out of his fingertips. It's all the proof in the world.

But as said, none of that matters anyways, because you have you have random speculation, seemingly disregarding your 'on panel only' mindset when it suits your arguement to the fullest.

And about the ranking of Eterity and Parallax, I replied to you to correct the misconceptions. My view on Eternity was never mentioned in any of my posts until my last one, where I did indeed say my viewpoint on it. And that was just because you kept pushing the issue on it. I figured I'd say my part after all that pushing. 🙂

Eternity holds a very important role in the universe, far more important than Parallax, but that doesn't mean Eternity could trump him in a fight.