Thing wins this easily. A win can come via submission OR KO here- Given that thing is by FAR the more experienced fighter, Strong guy could be easily taken out by MMA style submission or choke holds-
they're not "strikes" per se, but guido wouldn't be able to absorb the energy i.e. a strike, and even if he could, holding him immobile for 90 seconds (which would be VERY, VERY easy) while applying several tons of pressure on his joints or arteries would disfigure him permanently since he would have no ability to release it.
guido's powerset is actually a liability in this case, moreso than if he had simple superstrength.
The opposite argument wouldn't really work for thing, since his durability is a lot higher, and he doesn't have the 90 second limitation to expend any kinetic energy used on him.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Do you think Thing can beat Sebastian Shaw?
someone beat me to it, but yeah. Shaw and Strong guy's powers don't work the same.
Shaw can just absorb until he hits his limit, tires out, or manages to break the hold, whichever comes first.
Guido has 90 seconds to tap out before he's painfully mutilated and disfigured for life.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Thing wins this easily. A win can come via submission OR KO here- Given that thing is by FAR the more experienced fighter, Strong guy could be easily taken out by MMA style submission or choke holds-they're not "strikes" per se, but guido wouldn't be able to absorb the energy i.e. a strike, and even if he could, holding him immobile for 90 seconds (which would be VERY, VERY easy) while applying several tons of pressure on his joints or arteries would disfigure him permanently since he would have no ability to release it.
guido's powerset is actually a liability in this case, moreso than if he had simple superstrength.
The opposite argument wouldn't really work for thing, since his durability is a lot higher, and he doesn't have the 90 second limitation to expend any kinetic energy used on him.
Strong guy is an experienced fighter. Its not like Thing is going to dance circles around SG. Things a brawler and we all know this. Strong Guy was dancing around Hulk and only was hit because he allowed it. Thing cant overload SG, so him hitting Guido only helps SG out.
Id bet Thing couldnt hold Guido for 90 sec's. Thing holding Guido would only be making him stronger. Wouldnt be the greatest idea for thing.
Guido still wins.
Originally posted by jrodslam
Strong guy is an experienced fighter. Its not like Thing is going to dance circles around SG. Things a brawler and we all know this. Strong Guy was dancing around Hulk and only was hit because he allowed it. Thing cant overload SG, so him hitting Guido only helps SG out.Id bet Thing couldnt hold Guido for 90 sec's. Thing holding Guido would only be making him stronger. Wouldnt be the greatest idea for thing.
Guido still wins.
Thing has been fighting for a LONG time- the FF were one of the original superhuman teams in the marvel universe, so Thing has more experience fighting superhumans than nearly anyone. On TOP of that, Ben grimm was an accomplished boxer (not just a brawler!) BEFORE he became the thing. In marvel time, it's been about a decade since Ben Grimm became the Thing, and Ben Grimm was fighting long before his transformation. Strong Guy hasn't been in combat anywhere near that long.
It would be extremely silly to assume that in his career the thing has somehow avoided knowledge of basic choke and submission holds.
The Hulk is not a technically accomplished fighter, by comparison. For the most part, he IS just a simple brawler. (or was, prior to WWH i suppose.)
did you notice the method I said would be effective vs. Strong guy that thing could use? It's VERY EASY to put a combatant in a joint lock or choke hold that takes longer than 90 seconds to get out of. Your average POLICE OFFICER knows how to use these, since they can subdue suspects and inmates without striking them and risking killing them or giving them a concussion.
Since the OP stated that a submission OR a KO would work here, a simple joint lock/choke hold would do one of two things:
1.) if we assume Strong guy's absorbing power does NOT work versus holds (as opposed to strikes and punches), The thing can either apply pressure to cut off blood flow to the brain (a sleeper hold, essentially) which would be a KO, or apply a joint lock which in addition to being extremely painful, puts strong guy in a situation where he would either need to submit (thus losing by OP rules) or break his own arm to get out of it.
2.) If we assume Strong guy's power DOES work versus holds then he's in even WORSE shape, since he'd be absorbing kinetic energy the entire time the hold is in place, with no opportunity to release it, since most of these holds (joint locks, sleepers, etc) keep the subject immobile while they're applied. Strong guy would have 90 seconds to figure a way out of a hold/lock before being permanently disfigured and unable to fight.
If you've ever watched an MMA fight, 90 seconds is not much time at all to get out of these types of holds. Even trained fighters can take several minutes to find a technique to counter. It's not just about pure strength either but skill and technique, and Guido is at a significant disadvantage in both categories.
These arguments don't really work when arguing for Strong Guy versus Thing, since Thing's rocky hide will prevent any type of pressure attacks (sleeper holds versus thing should be virtually impossible) and he's by default significantly stronger than strong guy is, so getting him into a hold will be that much harder for Guido to pull off, especially given that ben grimm is technically the better and more experienced fighter by FAR.
If you assume the two are going to sit there and slug each other until one falls over this fight's a big question mark, but if we take Ben Grimm's SERIOUS advantage in fighting skill, it no longer is. If I could figure it out with less than two years of training, So could the thing.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Thing has been fighting for a LONG time- the FF were one of the original superhuman teams in the marvel universe, so Thing has more experience fighting superhumans than nearly anyone. On TOP of that, Ben grimm was an accomplished boxer (not just a brawler!) BEFORE he became the thing. In marvel time, it's been about a decade since Ben Grimm became the Thing, and Ben Grimm was fighting long before his transformation. Strong Guy hasn't been in combat anywhere near that long.
Yea Thing has been fighting for a long time, and yes the FF were one of the original teams, HOWEVER Things fighting experience vs superhumans include slugging. especially vs powerhouses. Guido is an accomplished fighter as well. His h2h skills are above average. Things skill you mention doesnt stop him from getting a beating in a slugfest.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
It would be extremely silly to assume that in his career the thing has somehow avoided knowledge of basic choke and submission holds.
Regardless of that, how common is it for him do do that vs another powerhouse? Highly unlikely.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
The Hulk is not a technically accomplished fighter, by comparison. For the most part, he IS just a simple brawler. (or was, prior to WWH i suppose.)
So as an accomplished fighter such as Thing, he should be out fighting Hulk more. Fact is, he doesnt.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
did you notice the method I said would be effective vs. Strong guy that thing could use? It's VERY EASY to put a combatant in a joint lock or choke hold that takes longer than 90 seconds to get out of. Your average POLICE OFFICER knows how to use these, since they can subdue suspects and inmates without striking them and risking killing them or giving them a concussion.
How often does Thing do this against another powerhouse? Its rare, and to say he beats SG this way is absurd.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Since the OP stated that a submission OR a KO would work here, a simple joint lock/choke hold would do one of two things:1.) if we assume Strong guy's absorbing power does NOT work versus holds (as opposed to strikes and punches), The thing can either apply pressure to cut off blood flow to the brain (a sleeper hold, essentially) which would be a KO, or apply a joint lock which in addition to being extremely painful, puts strong guy in a situation where he would either need to submit (thus losing by OP rules) or break his own arm to get out of it.
Whats to say Thing wont get put into a choke hold? Thing needs to breathe just as much as anyone else. Thing isnt known as a submission type fighter. Not saying that he cant do these thing, but it isnt something thats used frequently when he fights powerhouses.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
2.) If we assume Strong guy's power DOES work versus holds then he's in even WORSE shape, since he'd be absorbing kinetic energy the entire time the hold is in place, with no opportunity to release it, since most of these holds (joint locks, sleepers, etc) keep the subject immobile while they're applied. Strong guy would have 90 seconds to figure a way out of a hold/lock before being permanently disfigured and unable to fight.
Ummm, if and when it works, Not only will Stron Guys strength increase(beyond Things strength lvl at that), but his mass will increase as well. Thing would have no way to hold or and SG would ahve the power to break out.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
If you've ever watched an MMA fight, 90 seconds is not much time at all to get out of these types of holds. Even trained fighters can take several minutes to find a technique to counter. It's not just about pure strength either but skill and technique, and Guido is at a significant disadvantage in both categories.These arguments don't really work when arguing for Strong Guy versus Thing, since Thing's rocky hide will prevent any type of pressure attacks (sleeper holds versus thing should be virtually impossible) and he's by default significantly stronger than strong guy is, so getting him into a hold will be that much harder for Guido to pull off, especially given that ben grimm is technically the better and more experienced fighter by FAR.
Real life MMA fights is one thing, but when it comes to comic fights, holds dont last as long.😬 You say Guido is at a significant disadvantage in both skill and technique yet in his last confrontation with Hulk, he was the one using the skill and avoiding Hulks punches, while Thing decided to slug it out.
Things hide does NOT protect from pressure attacks. True at the start, Thing is stronger tha Guido, but if you assume his fist move is going to be a grapple, id suggest you rethink that.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
If you assume the two are going to sit there and slug each other until one falls over this fight's a big question mark, but if we take Ben Grimm's SERIOUS advantage in fighting skill, it no longer is. If I could figure it out with less than two years of training, So could the thing.
If you assume this fight would be nothing more than a slugfest, youre seriously mistaken. Because they are going to slug it out, its no question mark on the outcome at all. SG wins.