Talisman vs. Spectre

Originally posted by Juntai
But it's just a perception, we know this from The Spectre comics, what was left is not the sum of the whole, it's not what Spectre is. Though it does have form and has existed seperately from Spectre on other occasions.

It is The Logoz and a host spirit, that is what The Spectre is.
She temporarily was bonded to the Logoz, as in she became the engine of divine vengeance, which she said herself. Once that was done, all that was left was an immaterial perception of The Wrath. Which as stated in Spectre comics, is not a spirit, just the way humanity perceives how Spectre works.

Either way, she was able to take his powers momentarily and leave him with nothing. He couldnt even attack. He told Ecpliso that when his power returns, he doesnt even wanna be there for fear they might do it again. Wrath or empy spirit, he was powerless. Although he couldnt be attacked either, so youre right about Talisman not being able to do anything agsint him anyway.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Either way, she was able to take his powers momentarily and leave him with nothing. He couldnt even attack. He told Ecpliso that when his power returns, he doesnt even wanna be there for fear they might do it again. Wrath or empy spirit, he was powerless. Although he couldnt be attacked either, so youre right about Talisman not being able to do anything agsint him anyway.

But yea, if she couldn't affect The Wrath with those powers, it won't be happening with Talisman's powers either.

Which is why I said the only hope is to attack the host, which will just piss him off.

Originally posted by batdude123
Talisman can control spirits but not any all spirits. Spectre is not your average spirit, he is exactly like the Living Tribunal. I doubt Talisman is powerful enough to be able to control Spectre. But let's just say for the sake of arguements that she can (even though I doubt she can), how is she gonna control him before he just blinks Talisman out of existance?

Ummm...she doesn't? proof? because it's said she commands all spirits. If she is under her control she wouldn't blink her out of existance

Originally posted by Juntai
It's not a spirit, that's just how they percieved it.
I went through this already.
There is The Logoz, a piece of God, and the Host Spirit it bonds to.
The Wrath is just a perception that humanity creates.
This is all supported on panel and can't really be argued by you.
The only soul or spirit in The Spectre, is the hosts.
And attacking such would earn the ire of The Wrath.

But as said, Spectre plays in a different league. He can simply turn her powers off. Even turn the powers of wherever she draws her power from. Or any number of variables. He just plain wins.

Black Alice's random showing was a complete plot device.. and she didn't actually TAKE Spectre's power. She BECAME the Spectre, momentarily. "I am now the engine of divine vengeance". That's what her power is. She BECOMES who she borrows powers from. Similarly, she became Dr Fate, helmet, amulet, trinkets and all. All that was left when she did that in Day of Vengeance was The Wrath. A perception.

The Great Beasts arn't spirits either, but their from the spirit world and the Talisman still controlled them.

Uhhhh...I wasn't aruging that, and actually there is more than just the host Spirit. Since unless it was retconned the Sepctre was originally an angel who was later given the Logoz.

Unknown, since like I have said countless times we don't know which gods channel through her. She is the one who is suppose to fight all evil. He wins unless she can't control him.

No as said in the comics, by Spectre and BA his powers were gone. Yes he became the Spectre and took his powers, but Nabu is still Nabu and Zantanna is still Zantanna. She took his powers and left him with nothing.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Ummm...she doesn't? proof? because it's said she commands all spirits. If she is under her control she wouldn't blink her out of existance

The Great Beasts arn't spirits either, but their from the spirit world and the Talisman still controlled them.

Uhhhh...I wasn't aruging that, and actually there is more than just the host Spirit. Since unless it was retconned the Sepctre was originally an angel who was later given the Logoz.

Unknown, since like I have said countless times we don't know which gods channel through her. She is the one who is suppose to fight all evil. He wins unless she can't control him.

No as said in the comics, by Spectre and BA his powers were gone. Yes he became the Spectre and took his powers, but Nabu is still Nabu and Zantanna is still Zantanna. She took his powers and left him with nothing.

The Wrath is NOT The Spectre, that's just what they were calling it in the series, it was the enemy of the series.

It is not a ghost, it is not a spirit, it is JUST A PERCEPTION. An idea. This has been told to us by God itself. You cannot dispute it.

She removed The Logoz from The Wrath, temporarily and bonded with it. In all technical manners, she BECAME Spectre, she became the divine aspect of vengeance, what was left was The Wrath. A perception.

Do you understand now?

edit.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're confusing what The Spectre is, you've clearly never read one of it's comics. Day of Vengeance falls in perfectly with everything written.

The Wrath is NOT The Spectre, that's just what they were calling it in the series, it was the enemy of the series.

It is not a ghost, it is not a spirit, it is JUST A PERCEPTION. An idea. This has been told to us by God itself. You cannot dispute it.

She removed The Logoz from The Wrath, temporarily and bonded with it. In all technical manners, she BECAME Spectre, she became the divine wrath, what was left was The Wrath. A perception.

Do you understand now?

No I have, I remember they stated he was the archangel Raguel unless that was retconned. It was stated in either Sandman or the Book of Magic, I'll have to double check.

That's fine, as I have agreed on the host can be manipulated.

Yes she became the Spectre, Raguel unless that's changed lost his powers and she gained them. He still lost them, while she took them.

EDIT: Yep said in Neil Gaiman: Book of Magic

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No I have, I remember they stated he was the archangel Raguel unless that was retconned. It was stated in either Sandman or the Book of Magic, I'll have to double check.

That's fine, as I have agreed on the host can be manipulated.

Yes she became the Spectre, Raguel unless that's changed lost his powers and she gained them. He still lost them, while she took them.

EDIT: Yep said in Neil Gaiman: Book of Magic

The Wrath itself is just a perception, as shown in Spectre volume 4 issue 4, wherein The Logoz, a part of God, tells us that itself. It also tells us that it IS what the Spectre truly is.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No I have, I remember they stated he was the archangel Raguel unless that was retconned. It was stated in either Sandman or the Book of Magic, I'll have to double check.

That's fine, as I have agreed on the host can be manipulated.

Yes she became the Spectre, Raguel unless that's changed lost his powers and she gained them. He still lost them, while she took them.

EDIT: Yep said in Neil Gaiman: Book of Magic

Originally posted by Juntai
The angel was Aztar, but Raguel/Aztar's existance was completely deleted by The Word, that was his punishment as shown in Spectre volume 3 issue 60 when Spectre sees the creation of The Spectre. The only thing he lends to Spectre is the appearance.

The Wrath itself is just a perception, as shown in Spectre volume 4 issue 4, wherein The Logoz, a part of God, tells us that itself. It also tells us that it IS what the Spectre truly is.

I'll have to check it out, I followed more of the classic Spectre and about 20 or so issues of the recent series.

Alright I'll concede, like I said I was never set in stone with Talisman winning which people thought I was. However, it is still possible for her to control the host but what happens is up for others to debate.

Here's the origin in issue 60.

Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

_____________________________________________________
Spectre volume 4 issue 4, Hal taking The Wrath back into himself, after previously casting it out. While outside of him, The Wrath took of Zauriel's body.

Anyways, here's The Logoz, a piece of God, describing The Wrath as a perception and what The Spectre truly is.

The Logoz:"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."

and then on page 14.

Logoz: "For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Much appreicated, but is this before he sees "his" God that he created eating all his servants?

I didn't follow when Hal became the Spectre, I stopped reading comics around that time.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Much appreicated, but is this before he sees "his" God that he created eating all his servants?

I didn't follow when Hal became the Spectre, I stopped reading comics around that time.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, that origin is from the very end of volume 3, which was mid 90s, there was only 62 issues. That was issue 60. After that, Corrigan moved on to Heaven, and Day of Judgement happened, where Azmodel the fallen angel bonded with the Spectre from the feathers of an angel and the fires of an elder demon. The heros went to heaven for help, but were denied because all the rules were being followed. They went to Purgatory, and Hal stepped forward and said "I saved the world from freezing, now let me save it from burning." The Spectre eventually chose him as a new host. His series [volume 4] then went in the late 90's and early into this decade, and ended at issue 27. Then Rebirth happened to bring Hal Jordan back to life, shortly after that, the then hostless Wrath kicked off Day of Vengeance. And eventually got a new host through Gods intervention in Crisis 4.

I have rebirth, none of vol.4, about 20 or so issues of vol.3, all of vol.1 [digital] and most of vol.2, but do you know the event I'm talking about?

Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I have rebirth, none of vol.4, about 20 or so issues of vol.3, all of vol.1 [digital] and most of vol.2, but do you know the event I'm talking about?

Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not offhand, which series?

I pretty sure it was later in vol.3, tommorow I can give you more information. It's just a little late to pull open the comic boxes tonight.

Sorry hopefully I will have it for tommorow, but it was probally one of my favorite Spectre stories ever.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I pretty sure it was later in vol.3, tommorow I can give you more information. It's just a little late to pull open the comic boxes tonight.

Sorry hopefully I will have it for tommorow, but it was probally one of my favorite Spectre stories ever.

Well i agree that The Spectre would win, but still don't understand why juntai is saying The Spectre is a part of God??? It is not! The Spectre = The Wrath, The Word/Logos = a part of God/The Presence. read Spectre Volume 3/4

Originally posted by kevdude
Well i agree that The Spectre would win, but still don't understand why juntai is saying The Spectre is a part of God??? It is not! The Spectre = The Wrath, The Word/Logos = a part of God/The Presence. read Spectre Volume 3/4

I'd personally vote against Talisman being able to control Spectre.

I'm going to go back to GS's Quasar analogy. Quasar is said to control all energy. By this logic alone, he should be able to take over something like the Phoenix Force, but he has never, ever done anything to even hint that he could control energy at that level of power. Comparatively, Talisman is said to control all spirits, and by this logic alone, she should be able to take over the Spectre. However, she has never, ever done anything to even hint that she could control a spirit at that level of power.

The Spectre is an aspect of GOD. Regardless of what's been said about her powers, even high end skyfathers are nothing compared to the Spectre. Hell, he's proven to be superior to a group of the highest skyfathers around (Quintessence) more than once. She's powerful, yes, but she's A) Different than the others who have messed with the Spectre's powers and B) nowhere NEAR as powerful as he is. Basically, this isa curbstomp and a half.

I know you own it, I own it too, and all of volume 4, and read history pages of 3. All saying the perception is The Wrath/Spectre, The Logos identifies itself as a piece of God, the Spectre/Wrath does not identify itself as God or a piece of God, it is a fallen angel transformed to serve The Word. Reread Volume 4 and Rebirth. You have said this time and time again Juntai, yah i love the Spectre too, but hes not a aspect of The Presence.