well, there was some speculation that Joker isn't insane. He's supersane which is why he regained all sanity in a book where everyone lost superpowers and why he seems to recall non-canon events from past earths and from marvel crossovers that he shouldn't remember at all.
Question, and obviously it has to do with what you said. In the
Marvel VS. DC Storyline, the first two characters to meet each other from different worlds are Spiderman & Joker. Is this how he knew who Spiderman was?? Or is there somewhere else that he met him?? Does anyone have an explanation for that?
I was unable to sleep last night, and for some reason I ended up thinking about this...Batman limits himself by not using guns or any reasonably lethal weapon, and he doesn't kill. Batman probably would have killed Joker the first time they met if he carried a gun and had the desire to kill. So, it's not that Joker is better, it's just that he uses more deadly weapons.Joker vs Batman. We've seen it a bunch of times. Joker always gets a few hits on Batman but he's obviously not his physical equal. But think about it...Batman, almost always, BARELY is able to stop Joker's plans. Then he precedes to just pummel Joker and lock him up.
Joker is smarter than Batman. If it wasn't for Batman's physical prowess, he'd lose. They're equals in the sense that they're a balance of good and evil, and that they're rivals, and even that their sanity scales are balanced (Batman is mostly sane, but a little insane obviously. Joker is mostly insane, but obviously sane enough to be a genius.) The only thing that separates Batman from Joker in their fights is his strength.
People always say stuff like "How could Joker ever take down *insert any hero with a superpower* if he has no superpowers to fight back with? He can't even take down Batman who is just a normal man." - Joker proves himself time and time again to be a total genius when it comes to his crimes. Granted some things are PIS but you know, that's always a factor once in a while.
Essentially, I'm thinking...Joker is actually better than Batman. The only two things that are stopping Joker from killing Bruce for good is the fact that Joker isn't as physically strong as Batman, and Joker doesn't want to end the game that they play.
Neither wants to kill the other though. Look at how easily Joker kills everyone else and how easily he's able to let his plans come to fruition. If he wants to kill someone - he does. He beat Jason Todd to death, killed Sarah Essen, and shot Barbara in the spine....for fun. Batman vs Joker is a GAME to him, and its like prolonging the inevitable. Physically, Batman is stronger than Joker in every way. He could kill him without a gun, but he chooses not to kill the Joker. Mentally, Joker has the ability to kill just about everybody he would think about, but its no fun if he just kills everyone. Why join a circus and do your act if nobody is going to see it? You can't boast afterwards. Joker thinks of a plan, kills a few people, then talks to his #1 fan - Batman. He explains every little detail, and gets exactly what he wants in return: respect. Batman never goes "Wow, Joker, you're a genius. You totally had me going." because he doesn't have to. The fact that Batman considers Joker such a threat tells him flat out that he's IT. Know what I mean? All the instances where its Batman vs Joker, its all a concocted plan in Joker's head. If he chooses to shut the game off, he'll do it...and the only way he can be stopped is if Batman was to kill him, which Joker knows will never happen, so that's like playing a game of checkers and having a specific "red's can't be kinged" rule. Joker controls the black and dances around the board having fun until he decides to move in, king himself (after all, he's the clown prince lol) and sweep the table.
Indeed... though if Joker went all out to kill Bats, would he honestly sicceed?
Umm... I'd lke to think not. But you never know. That's the thing with The Joker, you never know just what is going on inside his head, thus not knowing what he can/will come up with.
They should make like a 'what if' comic where Joker gets fed up of Batman foiling his plans and decides to end their game. I think in the end though Batman would come out the victor. The only way I see him causing alot of damage would be to hit Batman with so many things at once (not physically, but mentally or emotionally, throughout his personal life) so that it intern affects his Night Job. Sort of how they did with Hush. Something to make Bruce to tormented and caught up that he would be his normal self.
Could Joker do it? I'm not sure, I personally think Bruce would come out no matter what. But I'll tell you this, If anyone were to do it, and would follow through with it, it would more than likely be the Joker.
Judging by comic book standards, in the end, the good guys do have to win, but I like that idea of a non-canon "What if" kind of story. Plus, if they would do that and show Joker winning and killing Batman, it would help spice up the canon stories as well. Then we know that in the minds of the writers, Mr J actually is all that he can be.
It's kinda similar to the whole Superman vs Lex Luthor battle that has been continuing for decades now as well, isn't it? I find it remarkable that in both instances, Batman and Superman, their potentially most dangerous and lethal adversaries (their arch-enemies, if you will) are normal humans, though with intellect in the genius level.
Which, again, proves that old adage, that man is the most dangerous predator there is. All you need, is a brain, the ability to make tools and a complete lack of scruples.
That is, after all, why we rule the earth, and not grizzlies, or lions, or sharks: They are all faster, and stronger, with bigger claws, and in a stand up one-on-one fight, they would tear us to pieces and eat the remains, exactly as Superman and Batman would do to Luthor and the Joker.
But we never engage in one-on-one fights with grizzlies and lions and sharks, do we? No, we study them, then we lure them into a trap, and then we either kill them or keep them for experimental/entertainment purposes...
I would argue the biggest liability for both Superman and Batman is their refusal to kill. If they had done the sensible thing, and had these multiple/serial killers executed ages ago, it would have much more sense, but now it is too late, almost.
Can you imagine the outcry if they decide to kill off Lex and the Joker once and for all? Nobody would believe it, anyway. Everybody would just wait for them to come back...
Do I have a conclusion? Well, I have an argument. 🙂 I believe that whoever decides to take that final step first will win the ultimate battle. It can be Batman, if he finally decided he has had enough, but I am sorry to say, I think he would hesitate, that one fatal instant too much. He has been living too long under his own strict moral codes, and we have seen how far the Joker has pushed him, and yet he never retaliated, beyond roughing him up a bit and then locking him up again.
Nah, my money is on the Joker. One day, he is gonna get bored of the game, and there will be no warning...
Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
Joker is a genius, but I wouldn't say he is "smarter" than Batman. Let's say that they have a role reversal. Bruce's brain is in Joker's body and vice versa. Joker has everything Batman has: the weapons, the armor, the vehicles, the physiology. But Batman is such a genius that, if it was HIM that planned some sharp, convoluted plan, he'd immediately kill Joker. The reason Joker almost kills Batman so much is his spontaneity. He's got the craziest genius spontaneity ever. Still, rest assured, if Batman ever turned evil, he'd be even deadlier.
I agree, I remember the Batman/Superman toon movie in which Batman said to Superman of the Joker "Expect the unexpected."
I dunno, hey.
I base my argument on several points:
One, Batman has never killed anybody. In fact, that is one of his most distinguishing characteristics. If he does ever kill anybody , in my opinion, one of several things would take place as well: First, he would have to change so much, change one of his most fundamental aspects so much, that he would just never be the same again. After all, where do you draw the line? (I think this is one of his argumets as well.)
See, according to several books I've read, and the opinions expressed therein, there is a fundamental difference between a killer and somebody who's not. Batman has a great regard for life, as is proved by his tenacity, his determination to survive.
The Joker doesn't. He will kill you for no more than a whim, and make no mistake: Batman is still alive because of a whim. Because, as has been stated elsewhere, he has a great regard for Batman's intelligence, and regards him, in a twisted way, almost as a peer.
In short, he finds him interesting. And therefore entertaining.
But the Joker is crazy. And a lot of people tend to forget that, because he can be so charming.
But here is another fundamental difference between Batman and the Joker: Besides the fact that Batman regards life as sacrosant, he is also one of the greatest detectives in the world. In fact, he is frequently compared to the great Holmes. Detective work, as you would know if you had spent as much time with Sherlock Holmes as I used to when I was a kid, is based on logic.
And Batman, ultimately, is a logical creature. All his decisions, all his life, have been based on logic and great personal courage.
The Joker is not logical. He is not predictable. He is not cute, or charming, or any of the other phallacies he have been lulling the entire world with (let's not forget, if anybody understands the concept of PR, it's the Joker).
He is a cold blooded, demented, sociopathic killer, and his obsession with the Bat, as everybody has speculated in the past, will eventually lead to the ultimate showdown.
But Bruce Wayne, the toughest streetfighter in the world, will always have one weakness, one the Joker does not have: He has a conscience.
The Joker? He is your worst nightmare - a fool with a gun.
Batman is a lot stronger than Joker, but because of his principle and ideology not to kill anyone that makes his weak point and Joker always know how to manipulate this..
Batman push himself too hard to be both extremely good,physically and mentally, while Joker only concentrate on the mental part...Maybe at some point, Batman will have mental breakdown (in real life I mean).