Originally posted by peejayd
* where can you find this in the Bible? the Father has a Son in His mind, and that Son is also the Father?
Revelations 13:8
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ."
This shows the foreknowledge of God. And shows how Christ existed in Gods mind. This shows that even though the lamb had not been slain yet it still existed in the mind of God. This could be applied to his sonship as well. It had not yet begun but it still existed for God doesn't live in time (2 Peter 3:8).
1 Peter 1:19-20
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you,"
This shows that the plan of Christ was manifested in the last times for us. This is in accordance to Timothy 3:16 where it says "God was manifested in the flesh".
Also John 1:1 is a perfect example of the foreknowledge of God.
We see hear that the "Word was with God and the Word Was God".
The word was not a seperate person in the Godhead anymore than a man's word is a seperate person from him.The Word was a thought or plan in the mind of God and the word was with him in the beginning. In the Greek the word LOGOS can mean the expression or plan as it exist in the mind of the speaker.
So in other words the plan was with God in the beginning and when the fullness of time came God put that plan into action and robed himself with flesh. The word was not in anyway inferior to God as you proclaim because the word WAS GOD. Also the word "with" used in verse 1 in the greek is "pros". This is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1.
Hebrews 2:17
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
Hebrews 5:1
"For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:"
So in other words. "In the beginning was the Word and Word pertained to God and the Word was God"
Originally posted by peejayd
* the Word is not the Father..."And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."
Revelation 19:13* it is Christ....
So the Father is not God?
He is called the word of God because he is God.
Originally posted by peejayd
* "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16* the One who was manifested in the flesh is also the One who was justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world and received up into glory... and it was Christ, not the Father...
One problem. The BIble doesn't say that. It says that GOD was manifested in flesh. Everything that God is is in Jesus Christ (Collosians 2:9). It doesn't say 1/3 nor does it say the one who was manifested in flesh was a part of God. But it says GOD was manifested in the flesh.
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, there is... Christ was begotten by the Father before His (the Father) works of old, before the creation of all things, before the foundation of the world...
Christ isn't a spirit. He's the visible image of the spirit of God(Collosians 1:15) and the express image of his person (Hebrews 1:1). So if Christ's flesh didn't exist than the only there would is the spirit of God that dwellethed inside of him. The Bible never makes mention of an "eternal son". Not once. It only mentions a begotten son. A son that was conceived and fathered at a certain point in time. I've already established with scripture what that certain time was.
Originally posted by peejayd
* you are talking about Christ's flesh manifestation... Mary gave birth to the flesh manifestation of Christ through the Holy Spirit... but long before that, the Father had already gave birth to Christ, long before the Father created all things..."For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee ? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world , he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."
Hebrews 1:5-6"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
And he is before all things , and by him all things consist."
Colossians 1:15, 17* Christ is first, He exists before all things was created... Christ was NOT only in the Father's mind, He exists with the Father..
The Bible doesn't say that! No where does it say Mary gave birth to the flesh manifestation of Christ. And nowhere does it say that the Father gave birth to Christ before he created all things.
Are you totally missing every scripture I gave you to point that Christ was begotten at a certain time? And that was when the Holy Spirit caused the conception.
And you just said "the Father created all things" but awhile ago you said The Father was speaking with the Son when he said "let us" make man in "our" own image.
Originally posted by peejayd
* oh, that?"Then Jesus saith unto them, Children , have ye any meat? They answered him, No."
John 21:5* Christ is a "father" to His disciples, that's why He called them "children"... Christ is a father, but He is NOT the Father... albeit, Christ is a God, but He is NOT God...
Christ called them children. Not his children. Besides, Malachi 2:10
"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?"
There is only Father that hath created us. And if Jesus is to be called the everlasting Father he is that one Father.
Collosians 1:16
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him , and for him:"
So we can establish from these verse of scripture that is only ONE father(Malachi 2:10). That Christ it the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6) and that by the Father all things are made (Malachi 2:10) and that Jesus created all things (Collosians 1:16)
Either your wrong or your saying the Bible is contradicting itself.
Originally posted by peejayd
* * it is Him, don't let the feminine pronoun fool you..."But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory :
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
I Corinthians 2:7-8"But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God . (KJV)
I Corinthians 1:24* it is really Christ......
Consider me fooled.
The wisdom of God does not refer to a different person but merely to one of Gods attributes. He used his wisdom is making the earth...
Psalms 126:5
"To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever."
Proverbs 3:19
"The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens."
Just like my wisdom is not different from myself the same is with God.
Thanks for pointing out 1 Corinthians 1:24. Christ is God manifested in flesh therefore all the wisdom of God is in Jesus.
Collosians 2:3
"In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
Jesus is the wisdom of God. This doesn't mean that he a seperate person from the Father but that through Jesus Christ God reveals His wisdom to humanity. And Christ encompasses all that wisdom.
Originally posted by peejayd
* through Christ, but it does NOT say Christ is the Father......
But it does say "he who hath seen me hath seen the Father". I can be one in unity with another person all I want. But the bottom line is when they see me they dont see that other person they see me. When we see Jesus we see the Father. We see the visible manifestation of God.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:28-30 is the birth of the flesh manifestation of Christ through the Holy Spirit... Christ was given birth by the Father long before He (the Father) created all things... Christ is the firstborn, remember Colossians 1:15-17...
I've already explained this in my previous statements. But just for kicks, your saying there was two births?
Originally posted by peejayd
* no verses, just mere interpretations...
I've given you plenty of verses my friend. I dont know how you can even make that statement. I've backed up everyone of my interpretations with a verse too.
Originally posted by peejayd
* you said earlier, God was made flesh, not 1/3 but the whole of Him, right? now, when Christ speaks to the Father, you claim He speaks in His humanity? do you imply that in that instance, there is a separation between His Godhood (as the Father) and His humanity (as Christ)?
I dont quite understand the question. Can you explain it further?
Originally posted by peejayd
* or was it really otherwise? that They are two different beings? just look at this..."And Jesus, when he was baptized , went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son , in whom I am well pleased."
Matthew 3:16-17* where was Christ in that instance? He was being baptized by John the Baptist... and where is God the Father? in the heavens,...?
Sigh, its discouraging that I actually have to go through the abc's of the Bible with you.
1 Kings 8:27
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee ; how much less this house that I have builded?"
God is omnipresent. Solomon said himself that the "heavens of heavens cannot contain God for he is everywhere.
2 Chronicles 2:6
"But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him ? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?"
Psalms 139:7-13
7"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?"
8"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there : if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there ."
9"If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; "
10"Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."
11"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me."
12"Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee."
13"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb."
The passage in Psalms is perhaps the most beautiful disply of God's omniprescence in the Bible.
John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
This signifies that Jesus could be on earth and in heaven at the same time.
Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Signifies that he can be with two or three of his disciples at the same time.
These are beautiful descriptions of Gods omniprescenes. He can be everywhere at the same time. He is omnipresent. God can be in heaven speaking and on earth as well. There are ONE. God was on the earth and because of his omniprescenes he was in heaven as well.
But let me evaluate this passage of scripture for you further.
Lets first take not of verse 16 "and the spirit of God descended like a dove." For further proof the Holy Spirit and God are the same lets look at
Luke 3:22
"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
What was that? The HOLY GHOST descended in a bodily shape like a dove. But in Matthew its says the "spirit of God descended like a dove".
The spirit of God and the Holy Ghost are the same.
We next need to understand the purpose of Christ being baptized since he was without sin (1 Peter 2:22) and certainly did not need to be baptized for the remission of sin. He was baptized to full all righteousness (Matthew 3:15) and to set an example (1 Peter 2:21). Jesus was baptizd in means of making himself known to Israel (John 1:26-27,31). Jesus used the baptism to mark the beginning of his ministry and make a public declaration to the people of who he was and what he came to do. John the Baptist did not know Jesus was the Messiah until the baptism. After he got the assurance that Jesus Christ was the Messiah he was able to procliam the he was the Son of God and the Lamb of God. The Holy Spirit was also to annoint Jesus. In fact the word Messiah translated means " the annointed one".
The Dove was a sign for John the Baptist to assure him that the Messiah was Jesus.
John 1:32-34
32"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."
The voice from heaven was a sign for the people. We see a similiar example of this in John 12:38-30. Alot of people where at this baptisism (Luke 3:21) and this was a sign for them.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ was talking about the Father, and don't interpret it as the spirit of God that lived in Christ..."And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me .
It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true ."
John 8:16-17* how come you can't swallow this straightforwardly?
Lol, what exactly can't I swallow?
So now the Father is a man? But I thought he was a spirit all this time....
Originally posted by peejayd
"At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses , shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses , shall the matter be established."
Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15* the law says at the mouth of two OR three witnesses... it says, "OR"... two is enough...
But why not go for three? When you're trying to prove yourself you'd bring out all the witnesses you can. wouldn't you?
Originally posted by peejayd
* i find your question very funny, 'coz your question sounded more like from a Pharisee... here, let Christ answer your question..."Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also ."
John 8:19* Christ blatantly told them that He (Christ) and the Father are two different beings... that's why He counted the Father as His second witness... that's the context of it, dude... They are two beings......
Lol, I wasn't asking that question. I was asking how the Pharisees ever beared witness of this "second person".
Its it very much NOT the context of it, dude.
If there where two seperate persons that would be like me saying.
"If ye had known me ye would have known my brother also."
That wouldn't work because when you know me YOU KNOW ME. Not my brother as well.
Originally posted by peejayd
even so, Christ is still not the Father......
But you just said seeing the image of God is equivalent to seeing God.
Is there two seperate persons in yourself? When you look at yourself in the mirror you see the image of yourself. Does that mean theres two of your something. If I see the image of someone I see that person. If I see the image of God I see God manifested. I see God. Though not the spirit but I see the visible manifestation.
Originally posted by peejayd
* now, now... believing what Christ says is also believing what God says..."For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."
John 12:49* but it does NOT mean that Christ is the Father... because the Father SENT Christ, the Father GAVE Christ a commandment... if so, you would imply that the Father sent Himself and the Father gave Himself a commandment... which is absurd.........
The proper way to decipher these scriptures is to distinguish the deity of Jesus( The Father) and the humanity of Jesus (The Son). As a man Christ was subordinate to the spirit of God the dwelt in him. Jesus did not come to do the will to teach the commandments of His humanity but rather to teach the commandments from the spirit of God that dwelt inside of him.
Originally posted by peejayd
"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Matthew 10:40* He that receiveth the apostles, also receiveth Christ, and he that receiveth Christ, also receiveth the Father who sent Christ...
* with your kind of logic, it would not only imply that Christ is the Father, but also the apostles will be "Christs"... and if the Christ is the Father, the apostles will be "the Fathers"...
* well, fortunately, it isn't... it signifies unity such as this...
Lets put this into simplier terms.
He that receiveth the apostles receiveth Jesus and he that receiveth Jesus receiveth the Father.
Ok hwo would that make the apostles Christ in my "logic"?
Originally posted by peejayd
"I and my Father are one."
John 10:30* the Father and Christ are one in what?
"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are ."
John 17:11
united as in unity....
Or they are one person. Ever think of that? Maybe the reason Jesus always said "one" and not "one in unity" was because he and the Father are in fact ONE in every way?
Originally posted by peejayd
* still, it does NOT supply the evidence that Christ is the Father... it would only further imply that the Holy Spirit is also Christ... which is again, absurd...
How is it absurd? Jesus said baptize people in the name of the Father, the SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST. That name is Jesus (Acts 2:38). The name of the Father is Jesus. The name of the Son is Jesus. The name of the Holy Ghost is Jesus. Because in Jesus Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Collosians 2:9). How does that not make sense to you? You can twist scriptures around all you want but theres some things that are just so plain you cant twist them around. Like how to baptize. Its so easy to understand.
Originally posted by peejayd
* look here..."Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Philippians 2:9-11* then, what will happen?
"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
I Corinthians 15:28* when all things are subdued unto Christ, then Christ will subject Himself to the Father... see?\...
Yes I do see. But unfortunately you dont. In the end the role of the Son will have completed its purpose. Then the Son will be submerged into God's plan so that God may be "all an all". Haven't I already explained this? Why are you repeating your answered questions?
Originally posted by Punker69
Hostel. I used to really love gory movies alot. I still like them even though I dont watch them. Saw, Final Destination, and whatever else. So if I HAD to pick one it would be "Hostel". "Brokeback Mountain" just doesn't interest me.
Should I expect you christian fanatics to be with huge signs saying "MURDERERS GO TO HELL" outside cinemas showing Hostel? I'm guessing no...
Basically how it works for you is: Movies that show sins in the eyes of God are ok as long as they aren't two guys making out.
You Christians are wasting so much energy in your pathetic anti-gay movement, when you could be doing things much more worth your while.
I swear Punker69, if there were a hypocricy price on KMC, you'd win by a landslide.
No one. I just want to state to everyone that:
If you knowingly do NOT care about gay issues, etc. or gay people in general, than you have no right to tell them how to live thier life, OR impede on thier civil rights with protests.
Not directed at YOU johnmark, just at anyone who does take this hypocritical action
*COUGH* Diamondbullets
Originally posted by Eis
"Also the film doesnt even depict a positive story about homosexuality. It instead shows a story of two men who have lied and cheated on their wives with someone of the same sex. Not only does this promote homosexualuty but also fornication and both are an abomination to God's word."
That's from your infamous thread.Should I expect you christian fanatics to be with huge signs saying "MURDERERS GO TO HELL" outside cinemas showing Hostel? I'm guessing no...
Basically how it works for you is: Movies that show sins in the eyes of God are ok as long as they aren't two guys making out.
You Christians are wasting so much energy in your pathetic anti-gay movement, when you could be doing things much more worth your while.I swear Punker69, if there were a hypocricy price on KMC, you'd win by a landslide.
Theres a big difference between "Hostel" and "B M". And one is "B M" was getting way more attention, oscar hype, awards, box office, rave reviews and "Hostel" wasn't getting any of that. "B M" drew out the Christian fanatics because of all the hype.
I am not a "fanatic". I posted once on the subject in a thread. That doesn't make me a fanatic. If you think it does, your an idiot. I wasn't standing outside of the theater opening day of "Brokeback Mountain" waving protest signs. Neither was I doing it with "Hostel". I just felt compelled to post my thoughts on the movie seeing all the attention is was getting considering it's low budget and indie film style.
Im not part of an "anti-gay" movement. If a "movement" is posting one message on a forum then you need to gain a better grasp on the word.
Originally posted by Punker69
I just felt compelled to post my thoughts on the movie seeing all the attention is was getting considering it's low budget and indie film style.
Maybe you haven't noticed that a lot of the films getting big attention are low buged indie films...
(i think people are finaly atarting to pursue some quality)
There is a reason all the pig porduction companies independand film distribution wings have grown tremendously in the past few years. Many of the new films coming out are low budget/independant.
Originally posted by Punker69
[B]Revelations 13:8"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ."
This shows the foreknowledge of God. And shows how Christ existed in Gods mind. This shows that even though the lamb had not been slain yet it still existed in the mind of God. This could be applied to his sonship as well. It had not yet begun but it still existed for God doesn't live in time (2 Peter 3:8). [/B]
* whoa, there... the Scripture does not give that kind of notion... read this...
"And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain ."
Revelation 13:8
* it does not say that the Lamb was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world but the Scripture says that the book of life was FROM the foundation of world and that book is of the Lamb that was slain...
* and still, it was Christ -> not the Father...
Originally posted by Punker69
[B]1 Peter 1:19-20"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you,"This shows that the plan of Christ was manifested in the last times for us. This is in accordance to Timothy 3:16 where it says "God was manifested in the flesh". [/B]
* still, it was Christ -> not the Father... sorry, dude but i think you are misled with your personal interpretations, because the Father cannot and will not change...
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ."
James 1:17
* no variableness, no shadow of turning... no change, no flesh manifestation...
"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God ."
Psalms 90:2
* God is God from everlasting to everlasting... no change... so you're belief of the Father being manifested in the flesh is plain wrong...
Originally posted by Punker69
Also John 1:1 is a perfect example of the foreknowledge of God.We see hear that the "Word was with God and the Word Was God".
The word was not a seperate person in the Godhead anymore than a man's word is a seperate person from him.The Word was a thought or plan in the mind of God and the word was with him in the beginning. In the Greek the word LOGOS can mean the expression or plan as it exist in the mind of the speaker.
* true, the Word was not separate... but the Word is NOT the Father...
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13
* the Father is NOT the Word... it is Christ...
Originally posted by Punker69
So in other words the plan was with God in the beginning and when the fullness of time came God put that plan into action and robed himself with flesh. The word was not in anyway inferior to God as you proclaim because the word WAS GOD. Also the word "with" used in verse 1 in the greek is "pros". This is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1.[B]Hebrews 2:17
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
Hebrews 5:1
"For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:"
So in other words. "In the beginning was the Word and Word pertained to God and the Word was God" [/B]
* and i thought you said i was twisting the Scriptures... John 1:1 says, "... and the Word was with God..." and not "... Word pertained to God..." you are obviously grasping straws to blatantly give different ideas against what was written...
Originally posted by Punker69
So the Father is not God?He is called the word of God because he is God.
* the Father is God, the Creator... and He is not the Word... the Word is Christ...
Originally posted by Punker69
One problem. The BIble doesn't say that. It says that GOD was manifested in flesh. Everything that God is is in Jesus Christ (Collosians 2:9). It doesn't say 1/3 nor does it say the one who was manifested in flesh was a part of God. But it says GOD was manifested in the flesh.
* read again, dude...
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory ."
I Timothy 3:16
* see?
Originally posted by Punker69
Christ isn't a spirit. He's the visible image of the spirit of God(Collosians 1:15) and the express image of his person (Hebrews 1:1). So if Christ's flesh didn't exist than the only there would is the spirit of God that dwellethed inside of him. The Bible never makes mention of an "eternal son". Not once. It only mentions a begotten son. A son that was conceived and fathered at a certain point in time. I've already established with scripture what that certain time was.
* Christ IS a spirit... because the Father is a spirit...
"God is a Spirit : and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 4:24
* and the Father gave birth to Christ, the Father had begotten Christ...
"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee ? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Hebrews 1:5
* what was born of the spirit is a spirit...
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
John 3:6
* the Father, who is a spirit, gave birth to Christ... Christ is a spirit...
Originally posted by Punker69
The Bible doesn't say that! No where does it say Mary gave birth to the flesh manifestation of Christ.
* oh my...
"And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father ,) full of grace and truth."
John 1:14
* the Word is Christ, and was manifested in the flesh... and that flesh was given birth by Mary through the Holy Spirit...
Originally posted by Punker69
And nowhere does it say that the Father gave birth to Christ before he created all things.
* gee whiz...
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
And he is before all things , and by him all things consist."
Colossians 1:15, 17
* the Father REALLY DID gave birth to Christ before He (the Father) created all things...
Originally posted by Punker69
Are you totally missing every scripture I gave you to point that Christ was begotten at a certain time? And that was when the Holy Spirit caused the conception.And you just said "the Father created all things" but awhile ago you said The Father was speaking with the Son when he said "let us" make man in "our" own image.
* what's the problem with that? Christ was WITH the Father before He (the Father) created all things... and Christ was also WITH the Father when He (the Father) was creating all things...
"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was .
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there : when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him ;"
Proverbs 8:22-30