Originally posted by debbiejo
The god and Lucifer/nemesis story is older than Christianity and found in many old pagan beliefs.
Thats the better way too look at it. Its not surprising that it could be contradictory in the bible since we ignoring what it orinally meant. We are trying to give meaning to a misinterpretation of some other older pagan concepts.
Peejayd....The Bible uses metaphorical language all the time..........some books are like poetry also.....Revelations is symbolic from a so called vision...not to be taken literally.......
Satan is not a real person. The story is based on older myths...
http://www.castleofspirits.com/origindevils.html
Also "Son of the Morning or Morning Star" refers to the Planet Venus...Jesus was also call the "Morning Star' along with Lucifer....At that time period much astronomy/astrology played a part...
Originally posted by debbiejo
Peejayd....The Bible uses metaphorical language all the time..........
* all the time? nope...
Originally posted by debbiejo
some books are like poetry also.....Revelations is symbolic from a so called vision...not to be taken literally.......
* there are some symbolisms in the book of Revelation but not all...
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9
* if this verse is not literal, what does this verse symbolizes? nope... this verse is NOT symbolical... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan is not a real person. The story is based on older myths...
* yes, because Satan is not a person... he is a spirit... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
Also "Son of the Morning or Morning Star" refers to the Planet Venus...Jesus was also call the "Morning Star' along with Lucifer....At that time period much astronomy/astrology played a part...
* are we talking about the same book? i was answering the topic according to the Bible, bro...
* yes, Christ was also called a "morning star" but in Isaiah 14:12-14, Satan is the one who is depicted as the "morning star" who fell from heaven... 😉
all the time? nope...I didn't say like every single time...Do you want me to rephrase......ok.....many times
* there are some symbolisms in the book of Revelation but not all...This was a supposed vision...Visions are symbolic, look at Daniel"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9* if this verse is not literal, what does this verse symbolizes? nope... this verse is NOT symbolical
* yes, because Satan is not a person... he is a spirit...Satan is not a real identity spirit either.Lucifer was adopted by the ancient Hebrews and retooled Shahar God of the dawn, Jerusalem means 'House of Shalem' and has ties to the worship of Venus the 'Bringer of Light'. In the Christian context it was cleric Origenes Adamantius [185-254CE] of the early Greek Church who first claimed Lucifer was the Devil, a concept championed by Augustine of Canterbury in 7th century England based on mistranslation. Lucifer was equated with Satan by St. Jerome in his Vulgate which claimed he was the serpent in the Garden of Eden who tempted Adam & Eve to transgress. He erroneously translated 'Heylel', which means Venus in Hebrew, into Lucifer and an allusion to Satan when it wasn't. One of the reasons he equated Lucifer with Satan was politics, his hatred of an orthodox movement started in the 4th century by the Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus, who founded a group called the Luciferians. By equating Lucifer with Satan he ensured that his heretical views on Christ's divinity and relationship with Jahova, etc, would be thought Satanic and not resuscitated.
There is no scriptural source designating Lucifer as Satan, nonetheless the Church taught he was an angel cast out of heaven because he wanted to take over the throne of Jahova. However it would be religious popular fiction which would cement Lucifer as another face of Satan, the 'Divine Comedy' by Alighieri Dante [1265-1321] and 'Paradise Lost' by John Milton [1608-1675]. It was at this period Mephistopheles entered the lexicon of Hell's overlord, the name a play on Lucifer, meaning 'not loving the light'. It has no scriptural basis, it's a medieval literary creation in the Faust novella which became an accepted part of Christian mythology in the same way Dante's view of Hell or Milton's view of Satan came to define the church position.
To be fair, Lucifer isn't properly a name of the shâtân, (as the Hebrew word for "Enemy, Opponent" would be better rendered into Roman letters): The name Lucifer likely originally signified the Morning Star, that we now recognize to be the planet Venus.
And, to be doubly fair, Satan went through a rapid re-structure of character: He was originally, (in The Book of Job), an angelic judge, and so his "Enmity" could be described as jurisprudence. Later, changes in the Judaic (and later Christian) doctrines brought about the Satan we love today. 🙂
Originally posted by debbiejo
I didn't say like every single time...Do you want me to rephrase......ok.....many times
* yet you said, "all the time"... metaphorical languages are used many times in the prophetic books and in the Revelation... however, in the other books, nope... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
This was a supposed vision...Visions are symbolic, look at Daniel
* visions both have symbolic and literal meanings... you should not generalize... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan is not a real identity spirit either.Lucifer was adopted by the ancient Hebrews and retooled Shahar God of the dawn, Jerusalem means 'House of Shalem' and has ties to the worship of Venus the 'Bringer of Light'. [B]In the Christian context it was cleric Origenes Adamantius [185-254CE] of the early Greek Church who first claimed Lucifer was the Devil, a concept championed by Augustine of Canterbury in 7th century England based on mistranslation. Lucifer was equated with Satan by St. Jerome in his Vulgate which claimed he was the serpent in the Garden of Eden who tempted Adam & Eve to transgress. He erroneously translated 'Heylel', which means Venus in Hebrew, into Lucifer and an allusion to Satan when it wasn't. One of the reasons he equated Lucifer with Satan was politics, his hatred of an orthodox movement started in the 4th century by the Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus, who founded a group called the Luciferians. By equating Lucifer with Satan he ensured that his heretical views on Christ's divinity and relationship with Jahova, etc, would be thought Satanic and not resuscitated.There is no scriptural source designating Lucifer as Satan, nonetheless the Church taught he was an angel cast out of heaven because he wanted to take over the throne of Jahova. However it would be religious popular fiction which would cement Lucifer as another face of Satan, the 'Divine Comedy' by Alighieri Dante [1265-1321] and 'Paradise Lost' by John Milton [1608-1675]. It was at this period Mephistopheles entered the lexicon of Hell's overlord, the name a play on Lucifer, meaning 'not loving the light'. It has no scriptural basis, it's a medieval literary creation in the Faust novella which became an accepted part of Christian mythology in the same way Dante's view of Hell or Milton's view of Satan came to define the church position. [/B]
* the name "Lucifer", yes... but Satan himself is in the Bible... he is the serpent being depicted in the book of Genesis written by Moses since 1500+ B.C., so again i'm telling you that i was answering according to the Bible and not from "other" books... 😉
Originally posted by Mindship
God's ultimate creation was a being with free will, a being which could actively choose not to believe in the existence of its creator and instead believe in its own freedom to choose.But just in case that wasn't enough to make things interesting, God made Lucifer.
Think of imaginative play: if you imagine scenarios where everyone gets along and everything is nice and wonderful, how much fun is that? Would you watch a movie with no conflict? Free will, the Devil: all this God made to spice things up.
If nothing else, God has one helluva sense of humor.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire
Insightful piece. But I don't believe God allows evil for the purpose of his own enjoyment.
As Neo from the Matrix put it, "the problem is choice."
There ain't no real love..if choice isn't involved.
Come to think of it, if I was God, I would have probably done the same thing.
Originally posted by ROYALGUARDit was made up.
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him.
A better question is, "why did it take god 6 days, when he can do anything?"
Originally posted by lord xyz
it was made up.A better question is, "why did it take god 6 days, when he can do anything?"
* yes, God can do anything... yet He did everything properly and orderly... and bro, the "days" are not literal 24-hour day... God is eternal and time does not limit God...
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day ."
II Peter 3:8
* one day or a thousand years is equal for God... He is eternal... He is beyond the scope of time... 😉
Originally posted by Evil Dead
but I thought god was omnipotent.......all knowing.....creates everything in the exact fashion he wants to, right down to the tendency to disobey or not to disobey. How is he to be compared to a normal man or woman who simply engages in sex?
well my friend lets set some records strait G-D did not "fashion" us to disobey he gave us whats called free will to follow his law or not and in doing this he has also given us Yeshua (Jesus) to save our souls from the firey pits of the smoking hell (which was only ment for satan and his fallen angels) and he created Lusifer with the same free will and he disobeyed the L-RD
* the name "Lucifer", yes... but Satan himself is in the Bible... he is the serpent being depicted in the book of Genesis written by Moses since 1500+ B.C., so again i'm telling you that i was answering according to the Bible and not from "other" books...The serpent is NEVER called Satan in the book of Genesis. And I am answering from other books which have just much validity as the bible.
* yes, God can do anything... yet He did everything properly and orderly... and bro, the "days" are not literal 24-hour day... God is eternal and time does not limit God...That is only one verse, there are others as in the book of Genesis that state a day being "The evening and morning...ie the next day"....Rotations of the Sun........Yet another contradiction.
Originally posted by debbiejo
The serpent is NEVER called Satan in the book of Genesis. And I am answering from other books which have just much validity as the bible.
* in the book of Genesis, yes... but the Bible comprises many books, not only Genesis... 😉
"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
I Timothy 2:14
* Eve was deceived by the serpent... who is the serpent?
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9
* the serpent is Satan... and he is the one who deceived Eve... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
That is only one verse, there are others as in the book of Genesis that state a day being "The evening and morning...ie the next day"....Rotations of the Sun........Yet another contradiction.
* nope... God is eternal and He is not limited or in the boundaries of time...
* read this...
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night ; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth : and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night : he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night , and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day ."
Genesis 1:14-19
* yet God made the greater light to rule the day (sun) and the lesser light to rule the night (moon) only on the fourth day... yes, it was not a literal 24-hour day... 😉
Hmmm Was that "Serpent" that Moses put on a stick or cross for the people to look upon also Satan???.........Revelation again is only symbolic as visions are..
I don't understand your last verses. It still sounds like a day and a night (24 hour period) to me..
So, are you saying that everything that happened on the 5th and 6th day all took place then on a 24 hour period..???
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
ZOOOOOOOOOM..........That was quite a speed up then....He put it in 2nd gear???
Originally posted by debbiejo
Hmmm Was that "Serpent" that Moses put on a stick or cross for the people to look upon also Satan???.........Revelation again is only symbolic as visions are..
* maybe you failed to read this...
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9
* it's funny how a "stick" can deceive the whole world... 😂
Originally posted by debbiejo
I don't understand your last verses. It still sounds like a day and a night (24 hour period) to me..So, are you saying that everything that happened on the 5th and 6th day all took place then on a 24 hour period..???
ZOOOOOOOOOM..........That was quite a speed up then....He put it in 2nd gear???
* if you don't understand, then don't give conclusions... 😉
* the fact that the sun and moon was only established on the 4th day of the creation, it only means the entire 6 days of creation was not a 24-hour day... 😉
* it's funny how a "stick" can deceive the whole world...It wasn't the stick they were praying to, it was the serpent on the stick... 😉
* if you don't understand, then don't give conclusions..........OH, but what you said was that the 24 hour period started after the 4th day..........So saying this means the first days were long expanses, but after the 4th day god had a watch that kept linear 24 hour time....* the fact that the sun and moon was only established on the 4th day of the creation, it only means the entire 6 days of creation was not a 24-hour day...
🙄
Originally posted by debbiejo
It wasn't the stick they were praying to, it was the serpent on the stick... 😉
* now, that's unsound... not all serpents are Satan... 😉
Originally posted by debbiejo
.......OH, but what you said was that the 24 hour period started after the 4th day..........So saying this means the first days were long expanses, but after the 4th day god had a watch that kept linear 24 hour time....🙄
* read back... never did i say the 24-hour day started on the 4th day of creation... i said, the sun and moon was only established on the 4th day of creation... 😉
Look up "zoroastrianism"
This is a Persian religion which ALREADY had the idea of a God and a Lucifer.
Ahura Mazda is the supreme being and Azura Mainu or something like that is the devil.
There is also an Armaggedon and a Savior.
This religion came centuries before Judaism and Christianity.
People don't know this, and it's sad......