United 93...Not for Liberals

Started by BackFire3 pages

Originally posted by PVS
backfire, the only problem i have with the "pressured terrorists" idea is that...well...those cockpits are constructed for the sole purpose of that very situation, accept with the terrorists on the other side of the door. but of coarse, they may have paniced and/or not known of this feature, and that the passengers had absolutely no chance of breaking through the door.

i agree that anything is possible, but feel you go to far when you say that the idea that the plane was shot down is based on " strange and questionable reasoning" when even the vice president stated that he regretted not being able to have the planes (wtc) shot down to save many more lives at the wtc.

the fact is that whether or not the terrorists knew of the impenatratble cockpit door, its certain that our commanders in chief knew. so how is it so outlandish to think that they would order the plane shot down before the inevitable happened, AND the deaths of everyone in the white house/capitol building/wherever to top that?

anyway, let me point out again that i dont disbelieve the official story...i just have my doubts.

Well, those doors obviously aren't THAT great since the terrorists got in themselves. Something else that is supposedly supported by the black box is that the passengers were using a service trolly as a battering ram to try and get teh cockpit door open. With the force of a good number of people, I wouldn't doubt the possibility of them forcing the door open after enough time.

Originally posted by BackFire
Well, those doors obviously aren't THAT great since the terrorists got in themselves. Something else that is supposedly supported by the black box is that the passengers were using a service trolly as a battering ram to try and get teh cockpit door open. With the force of a good number of people, I wouldn't doubt the possibility of them forcing the door open after enough time.

c'mon dude, it obviously wasnt locked when they got in or it wouldnt even be an issue and the terrorists would have had their asses dragged out and beaten to death.

Granted, that's probably true. Common sense, right? But really, that's just as much speculation in the same sense that the events in the film are.

Anyways, something from a review I read about this film that seems to be a pretty accurate statement when taking into consideration other reviews I've read; "These aren't American themes, they are human themes".

Originally posted by PVS
backfire, the only problem i have with the "pressured terrorists" idea is that...well...those cockpits are constructed for the sole purpose of that very situation, accept with the terrorists on the other side of the door. but of coarse, they may have paniced and/or not known of this feature, and that the passengers had absolutely no chance of breaking through the door.

i agree that anything is possible, but feel you go to far when you say that the idea that the plane was shot down is based on " strange and questionable reasoning" when even the vice president stated that he regretted not being able to have the planes (wtc) shot down to save many more lives at the wtc.

the fact is that whether or not the terrorists knew of the impenatratble cockpit door, its certain that our commanders in chief knew. so how is it so outlandish to think that they would order the plane shot down before the inevitable happened, AND the deaths of everyone in the white house/capitol building/wherever to top that?

anyway, let me point out again that i dont disbelieve the official story...i just have my doubts.

Actually I remember a lot of talk about reinforcing cockpit doors in the aftermath of 9/11. The doors weren't strong enough back then. Tactics were different too. We were used to hijackers that made demands and stalled. That's what everything was set up for.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Backfire, don't you think that if the terrorists intentionally crashed the plane that they (as terrorists) would have chosen a target instead of an open field? I understand that what you are saying is a possibility, but it is also speculation not fact. I would think that if they were going to intentionally crash the plane, why would they not take something out with it, that was the plan.

Also, I believe that eyewitness reports mention that the plane was upside down before impact, why (if this is true) would the terrorists intentionally invert the plane before impact?

Finally, looking at every crash previous to flight 93, why did all those planes leave post crash debris of considerable size such as entire tail sections, nose sections or body sections of the plane whereas flight 93 seems to have left nothing on the ground larger than a 3x3 section.

It seems very odd, and irresponsible, to have so little information regarding a national tragedy (odd also due the numerous conflicting eyewitness reports) and make a movie based on such information and speculation.

Actually the pensylvania crash was the one with less destruction. They were able to get the black box from that one, but not the others. And black boxes are designed to survive crashes. Which tells you something about the forces involved in crashing into those buildings. (or the buildings crashing in the case of the WTC)

How much time has to pass before the black boxes fall under the freedom of information act?

This movie is propoganda. Plain and simple. Watch it all you want, but don't be so full of yourself because you did.

Originally posted by BackFire
Omega - It's not a bad idea though, because it's grounds for a great story, and in turn a great film. Which is what this movie is supposed to be.
Whether or not the events are factual shouldn't make a difference when looking at a film, it should be the quality of the movie that is important.

I think it does make a great difference whether or not the events are based on facts. Wars have been started in the wake of 9/11, and once a movie has been made, it will somehow cement ONE way of viewing what happened to Flight 93.
I think the question I have to ask you is this: Do you completely rule out the possibility that Flight 93 was shot down?

Originally posted by PVS
a thought/fact to ponder: there will never again be a hijacked plane with hostages.
think about that.

What makes you say that?

Originally posted by The Omega
I think it does make a great difference whether or not the events are based on facts. Wars have been started in the wake of 9/11, and once a movie has been made, it will somehow cement ONE way of viewing what happened to Flight 93.
I think the question I have to ask you is this: Do you completely rule out the possibility that Flight 93 was shot down, given what is now known?

What makes you say that?

the only thing that kept hostages in their seats was the good chance that they would just have to endure sitting in some cell and eating crappy food in lebanon or some other shit hole for a week or so before being returned home safely. thats why they all sat there and did nothing. so...what do you think would happen now if terrorists threatened passengers to stay in their seats and obey, given what is known now?

Originally posted by PVS
the only thing that kept hostages in their seats was the good chance that they would just have to endure sitting in some cell and eating crappy food in lebanon or some other shit hole for a week or so before being returned home safely. thats why they all sat there and did nothing. so...what do you think would happen now if terrorists threatened passengers to stay in their seats and obey, given what is known now?

As soon as the terrorists control teh Airplane it doesn't matter much, does it.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
This movie is propoganda. Plain and simple. Watch it all you want, but don't be so full of yourself because you did.

thankfully, i think you're wrong on that:
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United 93

BY ROGER EBERT / April 28, 2006

It is not too soon for "United 93," because it is not a film that knows any time has passed since 9/11. The entire story, every detail, is told in the present tense. We know what they know when they know it, and nothing else. Nothing about Al Qaeda, nothing about Osama bin Laden, nothing about Afghanistan or Iraq, only events as they unfold. This is a masterful and heartbreaking film, and it does honor to the memory of the victims.

The director, Paul Greengrass, makes a deliberate effort to stay away from recognizable actors, and there is no attempt to portray the passengers or terrorists as people with histories. In most movies about doomed voyages, we meet a few key characters we'll be following: The newlyweds, the granny, the businessman, the man with a secret. Here there's none of that. What we know about the passengers on United 93 is exactly what we would know if we had been on the plane and sitting across from them: nothing, except for a few details of personal appearance.

Scenes on board the plane alternate with scenes inside the National Air Traffic Control Center, airport towers, regional air traffic stations, and a military command room. Here, too, there are no back stories. Just technicians living in the moment. Many of them are played by the actual people involved; we sense that in their command of procedure and jargon. When the controllers in the LaGuardia tower see the second airplane crash into the World Trade Center, they recoil with shock and horror, and that moment in the film seems as real as it seemed to me on Sept. 11, 2001.

The film begins on a black screen, and we hear one of the hijackers reading aloud from the Koran. There are scenes of the hijackers at prayer, and many occasions when they evoke God and dedicate themselves to him. These details may offend some viewers, but are almost certainly accurate; the hijacking and destruction of the four planes was carried out as a divine mission. That the majority of Muslims disapprove of terrorism goes without saying; on 9/12, there was a candlelight vigil in Iran for the United States. That the terrorists found justification in religion also goes without saying. Most nations at most times go into battle evoking the protection of their gods.

But the film doesn't depict the terrorists as villains. It has no need to. Like everyone else in the movie they are people of ordinary appearance, going about their business. "United 93" is incomparably more powerful because it depicts all of its characters as people trapped in an exorable progress toward tragedy. The movie contains no politics. No theory. No personal chit-chat. No patriotic speeches. We never see the big picture.

We watch United 93 as the passengers and crew board the plane and it prepares to depart. Four minutes later, the first plane went into the WTC. Living in the moment, we share the confusion of the air traffic controllers.

At first it's reported a "small plane” crashed into the tower. Then by a process of deduction it’s determined it must have been a missing American flight. The full scope of the plot only gradually becomes clear. One plane after another abandons its flight plan and goes silent. There are false alarms: For more than an hour, a Delta flight is thought to have been hijacked, although it was not. At the FAA national center, the man in charge, Ben Sliney (playing himself) begins to piece things together, and orders a complete shutdown of all American air traffic. Given what a momentous decision this was, costing the airlines a fortune and disrupting a nation’s travel plans, we are grateful he had the nerve to make it.

As the outline of events come into focus, there is attempt to coordinate civilian and military authorities. It is doomed to fail. A liaison post is not staffed. Two jet fighters are sent up to intercept a hijacked plane, but they are not armed; there is discussion of having the fighters ram the jets as their pilots eject. A few other fighters are scrambled, but inexplicably fly east, over the ocean. Military commanders try again and again, with increasing urgency, to get presidential authorization to use force against civilian aircraft. An unbearable period of time passes, with no response.

"United 93" simply includes this in the flow of events, without comment. Many people seeing the film will remember the scene in "Fahrenheit 9/11" in which President George W. Bush sat immobile in a children's classroom in Florida for seven minutes after being informed of the attack on the WTC. What was he waiting for? Was he ever informed of the military request? The movie does not know, because the people on the screen do not have the opportunity of hindsight.

All of these larger matters are far offscreen. The third act of the film focuses on the desperation on board United 93, after the hijackers take control, slash flight attendants, kill the pilots and seem to have a bomb. We are familiar with details of this flight, pieced together from many telephone calls from the plane and from the cockpit voice recorder. Greengrass is determined to be as accurate as possible. There is no false grandstanding, no phony arguments among the passengers, no individual heroes. The passengers are a terrified planeload of strangers. After they learn by phone about the WTC attacks, after an attendant says she saw the dead bodies of the two pilots, they decide they must take action. They storm the cockpit. Even as these brave passengers charge up the aisle, we know nothing in particular about them -- none of the details we later learned. We could be on the plane, terrified, watching them. The famous words "Let's roll" are heard but not underlined; these people are not speaking for history.

There has been much discussion of the movie's trailer, and no wonder. It pieces together moments from "United 93" to make it seem more conventional, more like a thriller. Dialogue that seems absolutely realistic in context sounds, in the trailer, like sound bites and punch lines. To watch the trailer is to sense the movie that Greengrass did not make. To watch "United 93" is to be confronted with the grim chaotic reality of that autumn day in 2001. The movie is deeply disturbing, and some people may have to leave the theater. But it would have been much more disturbing if Greengrass had made it in a conventional way. He does not exploit, he draws no conclusions, he points no fingers, he avoids "human interest" and "personal dramas" and just simply watches. The movie's point of view reminds me of the angels in "Wings of Desire." They see what people do and they are saddened, but they cannot intervene.

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he gave it four stars, and if you know ebert, you'll know he's quite liberal and would have sniffed out any red painted bush loving advertisements. i am relieved

I heard there's nothing political whatsoever in the movie. So I've heard, haven't seen it.

...so its just the marketing team who should be beaten, as i had hoped. 🙂

IMO, all marketing teams should be beaten. Especially those damn "message alert" banners that say "You have 2 messages waiting for you." I've got 2 messages for them, actually. Fist and Boot up their ass.

When people start accepting everything movie critics said no marketing team will ever fail. Too bad they just can't go to the movie and judge for themselves. They need tomatometters, thumbs up, and 4 starts to know what movie is about....

or just an indication of what the movie will be, from someone who would likely tell it like it is. but i guess i should run out and see it right now just in case ebert is really a right wing double agent set to mislead everyone on this one point. thanks for the heads up 👆